NOM

Last Sunday was Easter Sunday and I enjoyed most of the talks.

There was only one that i didn't and that was the mission pres who urged us to give up our favourite sins for Jesus.

One of my shelf creakers was that after 20 years post mission and sitting in church for 3000 hours I really don't think I'm a much, if any better of a person. So either I have been playing at it and did not have a strong desire to be better, and/or the church is really a lousy vehicle to get us to improve.

TBH I don't feel I'm a bad egg, I do give myself a telling off if I feel I have been short with someone, as I can do from time to time. But hey ho.

Is there bad in the world? Yes, people are trafficked etc. but really I'm not sure Jesus gives a hoot about my watching Game of Thrones.

I found myself wanting the mission pres to talk more about grace and mercy, rather than doubling down in the search of perfection

So a question for my NOM ward: How should the church deal with the concept of sin?

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:49 am So a question for my NOM ward: How should the church deal with the concept of sin?

From the TBM perspective, all of our sins are already paid for. So, do they exist?...they do if we allow them to--as in living in them. How do we live outside of them?...by learning to be better.

I think the idea of sin is wrong. I think the word sin should be replaced with the word learning.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:56 amFrom the TBM perspective, all of our sins are already paid for. So, do they exist?

I would argue that this is the Christian perspective but not the LDS/TBM perspective. Mormonism gives lip service to Jesus for paying for out sins but our repentance process is really about paying for our own sins through remorse, humiliation and pharisaical toeing of the line, with the overhanging threat that even the slightest hint of backsliding will instantly erase Jesus' efficacy in our lives.
The underlying message is that we shouldn't look to the Redeemer for our redemption but to the Central Scrutinizer.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:14 am The underlying message is that we shouldn't look to the Redeemer for our redemption but to the Central Scrutinizer.

I would be most pleased if Zappa was the inspiration for this quote.

I'm thinking that the Job of the OT version of perfect might be a clue to a more balanced approach to sin - it says he was perfect - so without sin. As LDS we say only Christ was perfect. However, if we consider Job to be a good man who treated people right and loved god, then that as a yardstick might be a better indication of sin - and perhaps more in line with Jesus's counsel that there were two commandments only: love god, love others.

But it seems we like to add commandments in the church, WoW, Tithing, Masturbation, R Rated Movies, Double Earings, Swearing. So I agree with above comment of being pharisaical. We've created a monster, as time evolves successive leaders add rules, they seldom get taken away, so we end up being suffocated under the weight of our own attempts at righteousness.

However, I'm sure that I did not see it that way with my TBM hat on.

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:49 am but really I'm not sure Jesus gives a hoot about my watching Game of Thrones.

He may also have been a fan of Daenerys and wants to see her return to Westeros.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usOfZxCMJX8

[/quote]
He may also have been a fan of Daenerys and wants to see her return to Westeros.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usOfZxCMJX8
[/quote]

Love that music.

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:19 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:14 am The underlying message is that we shouldn't look to the Redeemer for our redemption but to the Central Scrutinizer.

I would be most pleased if Zappa was the inspiration for this quote.

Of course!

I love the Ash avatar, by the way.

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:07 pm He may also have been a fan of Daenerys and wants to see her return to Westeros.

We will have to politely disagree. Daenerys is turning into a tyrant and her lust to rule a land she has never seen will end in excessive bloodshed. I hope that Jon Snow can forge an understanding with her, especially since the real enemy is still out there. But I also would not mind seeing a clash between the armies of the North against the Dothraki horde.

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:49 am So a question for my NOM ward: How should the church deal with the concept of sin?

In the LDS church, sin is all too commonly and ignorantly defined as not following the prophet. Once focused example is the fact that drinking tea prevents a person from receiving saving ordinances. But no real discussion is allowed on this matter. Prophets and apostles are never put in a position to seriously discuss or defend LDS restrictions. Sin is simply going against the common and changing doctrine of the day. It is not defined in any rigorous way other than actions that are denounced in General Conference and Church Handbooks of Instruction.

I do occasionally see some real discussion on developing Christlike attributes in the LDS church. Learning moral development and becoming more like the Savior would be excellent lessons for Sunday School and I have seen good lessons like this. But even in the best of circumstances, holding to the most common LDS cultural restrictions is a major part of the thin spiritual development fostered in Sunday School. Most of LDS organization, meeting structure, temple rites, and cultural preferences support the the LDS institutional church while following Christ is just a marketed afterthought.

I think that Christianity has an effective doctrine with grace. Yes, it has been used to license sins in foolish instances. But I have seen it used as the impetus for Christians to become better people. Grace is not well supported in LDS theology since so many works are emphasized by the LDS church.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:03 am

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:07 pm He may also have been a fan of Daenerys and wants to see her return to Westeros.

We will have to politely disagree. Daenerys is turning into a tyrant and her lust to rule a land she has never seen will end in excessive bloodshed. I hope that Jon Snow can forge an understanding with her, especially since the real enemy is still out there. But I also would not mind seeing a clash between the armies of the North against the Dothraki horde.

It sounds like someone has a testimony of Game of Thrones.

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:15 am

redjay wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:49 am So a question for my NOM ward: How should the church deal with the concept of sin?

Sin is simply going against the common and changing doctrine of the day. It is not defined in any rigorous way other than actions that are denounced in General Conference and Church Handbooks of Instruction.

And if you doubt it, next time you listen to conference pay attention to the fact that when they talk about obeying "God" and following the "commandments," they are merely using those terms as placeholders for the church and the Brethren.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:03 am

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:07 pm He may also have been a fan of Daenerys and wants to see her return to Westeros.

We will have to politely disagree. Daenerys is turning into a tyrant and her lust to rule a land she has never seen will end in excessive bloodshed. I hope that Jon Snow can forge an understanding with her, especially since the real enemy is still out there. But I also would not mind seeing a clash between the armies of the North against the Dothraki horde.

It sounds like someone has a testimony of Game of Thrones.

I have a testimony that I will view seasons 7 and 8 with my actualm non-spiritual eyes. I also have a fervent hope of seeing book 6 one day also and that this glorious time will occur before the Second Coming of Jesus.

I read someplace that Bible scholars (non-LDS) and linguists said that 'sin' means missing the mark, as in archery. Also, when reading about Jesus being perfect, perfection in this case is something more akin to being fully mature, well adjusted, basically.

By that reading, the Bible is no as draconian as the meaning ascribed to it by mormonism.

It seems like the idea of sin has been maturing for millennia. The ancient Israelites weren't so much concerned with sin as with with cleanliness. You could become unclean by committing what modern people would recognize as sin, but you could also become equally unclean by not handling the carcass of a chicken correctly, or by using a trumpet incorrectly, or by planting two kinds of seeds in the same field or wearing clothes made from two different types of fibers (those last two were actually classified as abominations). Most forms of uncleanliness were remedied by washing with water, waiting until sunset, etc.

Once Satan was invented, with his ulterior motives and plans of deception/overthrow, the concept of sin began to enlarge, as if making mistakes now made you complicit in a larger Plan o' Evil from which you needed to distance yourself by publicly demonstrating your abhorrence of evil by grovelling for forgiveness, performing acts of self-deprecation, etc.

[/quote]
And if you doubt it, next time you listen to conference pay attention to the fact that when they talk about obeying "God" and following the "commandments," they are merely using those terms as placeholders for the church and the Brethren.
[/quote]

I doubt not

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 am You could become unclean by ... wearing clothes made from two different types of fibers (those last two were actually classified as abominations).

"Woe unto you fallen and sinful generations who weareth clothes made with a cotton/poly blend."
-- Captain Moroni at the Battle of Monsanto

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:11 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 am You could become unclean by ... wearing clothes made from two different types of fibers (those last two were actually classified as abominations).

"Woe unto you fallen and sinful generations who weareth clothes made with a cotton/poly blend."
-- Captain Moroni at the Battle of Monsanto

Are you denouncing my choice of temple authorized undergarments!?

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:16 pm Are you denouncing my choice of temple authorized undergarments!?

Dude,...looking at your avatar, and even remotely wondering about what kindof of underpants you wear...

GAWD....<<rumble churn>>....I gotta throw up!!!!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 pm It sounds like someone has a testimony of Game of Thrones.

Corsair has cause for his testimony when you realize that the surname of the Lehi was Targaryen.