NOM

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:55 am**

Or something like that was a talk in the women's conference I think.

It's just bugged me ever since.

#1 it's impossible. Even from a TBM perspective. We all sin and we all make mistakes.
#2 it invalidates the need for a savior.

TBM doctrine. Contradictory and impossible. Setting everyone up to fail.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:29 am**

This is something that has bothered me too for the last few months. It seems the church has evolved to accept Lucifer's plan rather than Christ's. You know the plan of no agency, everyone must obey and everyone makes the trip back to Narnia to be with the father. Not much different that current dogma.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:07 am**

What, you don't want to be a member of the Not Even Once Club?

But you are right. Nonsense like this completely disregards the need for Jesus, sets up a pharasitical system of obedience, rules and laws, and the need to guilt/shame people into doing what they're told. It was a despicable talk.

And the title of the talk was "A Sin-Resistant Generation" by Joy Jones, and it was given Sunday morning in the general session of conference. What I liked about it, was that Utchdorf basically relegated her meanderings as a 10 minute waste of time with his thundering against fearmongering. If you have the misfortune to read her talk again, as I have done, it basically says the world is a wicked place and you need to inoculate? indoctrinate? brainwash? your kids against it. That's why I like Utchdorf's talk so much. It basically told Joy and people like her to please be quiet with your fearful diatribes. Every time I hear this tripe in church now, I'm going to quote Utchdorf and watch the fun.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:29 am**

Pre faith transition, sin was an easy concept to understand. Commandments written to protect us from evil. Don't do this, don't do that, follow the prophet and obey. Easy.

Post faith transition, the concept of sin becomes transparent. Arbitrary rules written to keep us locked into faith. Don't do this, don't do that, because we said so.

Replace the word sin with "question" and suddenly this talk makes sense.

The church is only interested in creating a question resistant generation.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:06 am**

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:29 am This is something that has bothered me too for the last few months. It seems the church has evolved to accept Lucifer's plan rather than Christ's. You know the plan of no agency, everyone must obey and everyone makes the trip back to Narnia to be with the father. Not much different that current dogma.

Tru dat - as a family member said "I'll never be good enough for your church"

if we kept the WoW as originally suggested - a suggestion

got out of the bedroom

and tithed on surplus

people might actually not feel so repressed by the whole shebang.

Alas no persecution complex and justifaction of effort paradigms are the order of the day.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:08 am**

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:07 am What, you don't want to be a member of the Not Even Once Club?

But you are right. Nonsense like this completely disregards the need for Jesus, sets up a pharasitical system of obedience, rules and laws, and the need to guilt/shame people into doing what they're told. It was a despicable talk.

And the title of the talk was "A Sin-Resistant Generation" by Joy Jones, and it was given Sunday morning in the general session of conference. What I liked about it, was that Utchdorf basically relegated her meanderings as a 10 minute waste of time with his thundering against fearmongering. If you have the misfortune to read her talk again, as I have done, it basically says the world is a wicked place and you need to inoculate? indoctrinate? brainwash? your kids against it. That's why I like Utchdorf's talk so much. It basically told Joy and people like her to please be quiet with your fearful diatribes. Every time I hear this tripe in church now, I'm going to quote Utchdorf and watch the fun.

Aye - my 'I'll never be good enough" family member has had one relationship with one person with whom they are getting married later this year after about 7 years.

Posted: **Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:24 pm**

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:29 am This is something that has bothered me too for the last few months. It seems the church has evolved to accept Lucifer's plan rather than Christ's. You know the plan of no agency, everyone must obey and everyone makes the trip back to Narnia to be with the father. Not much different that current dogma.

This is a concept I have thought about and argued with my wife about for a while. We totally seem to be going down a path that is closer to lucifers original, even if you don't believe in that whole story. If you step back and look, the church is trying its damndest to force everyone into a mold that will get you back to God. You cannot be yourself and get back to God seems to be the message. Tbm's would say that we have our agency and yada yada, but I don't view being threatened with eternal torment if you don't do something as making an informed choice. The argument of "this is gods plan and the church is just the messenger" fall flat for me because most of that crap has come from Joseph and others, not God per se.

Posted: **Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:50 pm**

A sinless generation is the epitome of the church's goals. Of course we sin, but we must do all we can and then atonement will take care of the rest. every night when you lay your head on your pillow you can rest assured you are worthy to meet your maker if it be the that night and you will be spotless before him.

Live every day sinless to best of your ability and trust in the lord for rest - and DONT F#KING READ THE INTERENT!!!

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:13 am**

Ok one more related (i think) gripe. Obedience is the first rule in heaven? No it isn't. It's love. Right? The first ad greatest commandment to love one another? Am I misquoting? If obedience was the first law, why not go ahead and do satan's plan? Again, obedience means...don't think for yourself. Don't sin. Don't progress. Don't repent. Don't avail yourself of the atonement. Are all of those completely in opposition to the plan of salvation? I feel...amazed...at times when I look back and shrugged off all of the illogical and irrational and circular and contradictory messages I was getting at church.

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:59 am**

Anon70 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:13 am Ok one more related (i think) gripe. Obedience is the first rule in heaven? No it isn't. It's love. Right? The first ad greatest commandment to love one another? Am I misquoting? If obedience was the first law, why not go ahead and do satan's plan? Again, obedience means...don't think for yourself. Don't sin. Don't progress. Don't repent. Don't avail yourself of the atonement. Are all of those completely in opposition to the plan of salvation? I feel...amazed...at times when I look back and shrugged off all of the illogical and irrational and circular and contradictory messages I was getting at church.

I'n not so sure. The first great commandment is to love the lord thy god with all your might, mind and soul. Other people come second. Jesus said "he who loves me will obey my commandments." Or in some translations "will do what I say". So isn't obedience part and parcel with the law of the gospel? It seems consistent to claim obedience as the first law in heaven then, doesn't it? There is a difference between forcing someone to follow you and suggesting they don't love you if they fail to "do what you say" but the line seems pretty thin and fuzzy to me.

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:09 am**

To me obedience isn't really a law in itself, but compliance to a law.

I was reading somewhere (I want to say one of Rock Waterman's blog posts) where that "obedience is the first law of heaven" quote is commonly taken out of context, and in the original context it was referring to basically how planets and nature "obey" or are subject to God's law... or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm sure church leaders have no qualms about hijacking a quote and morphing into something to suit their "obey us" rhetoric. I'll have to look for that post... it's a pretty good comeback when leaders refer to the obedience quote.

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:44 am**

I was reading somewhere (I want to say one of Rock Waterman's blog posts) where that "obedience is the first law of heaven" quote is commonly taken out of context, and in the original context it was referring to basically how planets and nature "obey" or are subject to God's law...

For sure let me know if you find that, I'd be interested to read it. For me, if loving god is the great law and god himself says Love=Obedience than it seems logical that they are interchangeable.

You bring up an interesting point with nature obeying god as that's one of those ideas that makes Mormonism wonderfully and offputtingly weird. The universe is able to come about because the elements, in their sphere of intelligence, love and therefore obey god, right? Our very existence comes down to this love/obedience dynamic to the extent that obedience could be called the first law of physics, right? It governs everything in an ordered universe, at least according to Mormonism as I understand it. And from my understanding this view appears to have biblical support.

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:09 am**

2bizE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:29 am It seems the church has evolved to accept Lucifer's plan rather than Christ's. You know the plan of no agency, everyone must obey and everyone makes the trip back to Narnia to be with the father.

Excellent point! Clearly the brethren want members to grab the rod, not look left or right, and not let go. The teachings of Christ have been replaced, or overshadowed, by a carefully directed informational campaign that is intended to maintain and keep the "sheep in the flock". Plato's Allegory of the Cave shares light (excuse the pun Plato) on how hard it is to step out of the cave, and to get others to realize the "Rest of the Story" (knowingly plagiarized from Paul Harvey).

Platos Allegory of the Cave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWlUKJIMge4

Posted: **Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:08 pm**

I was reading somewhere (I want to say one of Rock Waterman's blog posts) where that "obedience is the first law of heaven" quote is commonly taken out of context, and in the original context it was referring to basically how planets and nature "obey" or are subject to God's law...

Found the link to the article I referenced above.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160911100 ... eaven.html

I don't agree with all of Rock's stuff, but he makes some good points and he is pretty entertaining.

NOM

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