NOM

I told a NOMish friend of mine of my disbelief fairly early on and he keeps trying to disarm my views. He is a Richard Bushman/Givens style NOM. When we talk he is friendly and accepting, but there is always this tinge of condescension and that I will eventually come to my senses. He will sometimes ask, "Do you still visit that website everyday?" because I told him I found a place where I don't feel so freaking alone in this. It seems like he is insinuating that as long as I go to my echo chamber that these aren't my real views, and that once I stop coming here I will snap out of it. It's really annoying.

Anyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest, new echo chamber friends.

Do you forget Santa isn't real when you don't talk or think about him for 11 months each year?

I often find nuanced believers more irritating than TBMs. AT least with TBMs I know where they stand; I have expectations with nuanced believers that are rarely met and often I get the kind of pushback you're describing here. Every summer I do a community project and a mormon couple from the stake also participate. I know they're "progressive" (particularly the husband) so when I had a moment with the husband I kind of tested the waters and got the reaction you're describing, "Someday people who are having trouble with the church will come to the enlightened and believing view I have." I smiled and dropped the subject.

Ha ahahah ah hah ahah! Sorry, I'm not laughing at you, but WITH you. Sometimes I get similar feelings from my wife. She is 100% cultural mormon (non believing) but won't even consider leaving. I would leave in a heart beat. But sometimes I feel the desire to leave or the frustration of going more than other days. Thus, she'll sometimes be listening to a podcast and not want me to hear it because she fears it will "push me over the top" or make me "feel even more like leaving." While admittedly too much focus on church via podcasts, forums, etc can facilitate me feeling increased anger or frustration, I have to gently reminder her that my feelings never really change. I ALWAYS don't believe and ALWAYS would like to leave and be done with it.

Just like TBM's have to read, pay, pray, and obey us NOMs have to read, think, pay (the price of being heretics), and obey (just enough to not be cast out).

A regular visit to NOM keeps sane!

One of the purposes of NOM is to let each other know that we are not the crazy ones that the believers in our life accuse us of being. Certainly we have congratulated people that have been able to leave NOM and all other bits of Mormon culture behind after they exit the church. This works when a full and clean break happens with no friends of family trying to pull them back. But this is not the case with most of us.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:30 amI often find nuanced believers more irritating than TBMs. AT least with TBMs I know where they stand; I have expectations with nuanced believers that are rarely met and often I get the kind of pushback you're describing here.

I've heard this complaint at the Mormon Discussions Board. Apparently, it is easier to play Pin the Tail on the Donkey when someone can maintain the posture of an unmoveable donkey. TBMs fit that bill and those who individualize their faith do not maintain the rigid posture needed for properly skewering the donkey.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:42 am Do you forget Santa isn't real when you don't talk or think about him for 11 months each year?

Love this.

But there is actually some truth to what he says. People believe what they want to believe. And if you can be isolated, humiliated, and treated like you are just not very smart and definitely not accepted, then you will WANT to believe hard enough that you might at least keep your mouth shut and nod your head when they say things you can't believe in, if for no other reason just so that you can regain some respect.

NOM makes me realize it is them that are crazy, not me. And that this is a big world, and Mormonism is a teeny tiny part of it, even if it fills up most of my life.

Linked wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 am I told a NOMish friend of mine of my disbelief fairly early on and he keeps trying to disarm my views. He is a Richard Bushman/Givens style NOM. When we talk he is friendly and accepting, but there is always this tinge of condescension and that I will eventually come to my senses. He will sometimes ask, "Do you still visit that website everyday?" because I told him I found a place where I don't feel so freaking alone in this. It seems like he is insinuating that as long as I go to my echo chamber that these aren't my real views, and that once I stop coming here I will snap out of it. It's really annoying.

Anyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest, new echo chamber friends.

Where does your friend get his Bushman/Givens type ideas? General Conference? Does he feel free to bring them up in Gospel Doctrine class?
Thanks for a great thread.

In a discussion with my dad over not watching conference, I mentioned that I participated in an online forum of the "less than faithful" variety. He said, "an internet forum?" The subtext was that Internet forums are a den of iniquity. He told me, "why would you expend effort on that but not on conference?"
I suppose he is right, I participate here and not on more faithful or more anti sites because you all align much closer to my attitudes than anything also. In a way I am choosing to be in an echo chamber. But that is what life is. Just because I have chosen something different doesn't make it wrong.
Our society prizes being different. We feel,good after watching a movie where the hero finds the courage to be himself. But that is somehow supposed to change with religion and God? I don't think so.

GoodBoy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:59 pm NOM makes me realize it is them that are crazy, not me. And that this is a big world, and Mormonism is a teeny tiny part of it, even if it fills up most of my life.

I feel the same way.

Linked wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 am "Do you still visit that website everyday?" because I told him I found a place where I don't feel so freaking alone in this.

Reply: "Do you still go to church every Sunday, read your scriptures, etc.?"

(THAT's not an echo chamber, is it?)

Linked wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 amAnyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest, new echo chamber friends.

Is there an echo in here . . . in here . . . in here . . . in here . . .

I'm glad for the NOM forum, even though I'm more believing than pretty much anyone on here - but it isn't the Corp's narrative that I believe. I like the fact that I am accepted here, and that my views are tolerated. And that you guys helped me transition to a different kind of underwear, and answered my questions about alcoholic drinks.

For what it's worth, I'm checking in here for the first time in many weeks. Nothing has changed with me, so I suppose that is evidence that freqenting NOM is not what keeps us believing in reality over myth. As others have pointed out, it certainly is comforting to be able read and converse with others that understand.

Linked wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 am I told a NOMish friend of mine of my disbelief fairly early on and he keeps trying to disarm my views. He is a Richard Bushman/Givens style NOM. When we talk he is friendly and accepting, but there is always this tinge of condescension and that I will eventually come to my senses. He will sometimes ask, "Do you still visit that website everyday?" because I told him I found a place where I don't feel so freaking alone in this. It seems like he is insinuating that as long as I go to my echo chamber that these aren't my real views, and that once I stop coming here I will snap out of it. It's really annoying.

Anyway, thanks for letting me get that off my chest, new echo chamber friends.

I've experienced similar.
Maybe they're projecting - assuming you believe based on the same conditions they do - peer pressure.

Linked wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 amHe will sometimes ask, "Do you still visit that website everyday?" because I told him I found a place where I don't feel so freaking alone in this. It seems like he is insinuating that as long as I go to my echo chamber that these aren't my real views, and that once I stop coming here I will snap out of it. It's really annoying.

It would probably be ineffective, but you could ask him, "Do you still visit that church every Sunday?" This is one of the messages of the LDS church (and probably other churches). We should be at church every Sunday for fellowship with the believers because going inactive leads to your testimony growing cold. This will result in your loss of the spirit and becoming accustomed to that feeling. Your friends sound like delightful people who are certainly coming from a believing point of view. They have not comprehended that people will simply come to different conclusions.

So, yes, we do keep visiting "that website" and several other websites and podcasts that would horrify your friend. NOM is a pretty friendly place and I have seen many thoughtful conversations with polite believers that occasionally visit. The reddit.com/r/exmormon forum is quite caustic, but they also speak kindly to believers who have visited. Religious belief is simply not something that is solved by praying for a testimony as much as we would like it to be so.

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses!

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:44 am

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:30 amI often find nuanced believers more irritating than TBMs. AT least with TBMs I know where they stand; I have expectations with nuanced believers that are rarely met and often I get the kind of pushback you're describing here.

I've heard this complaint at the Mormon Discussions Board. Apparently, it is easier to play Pin the Tail on the Donkey when someone can maintain the posture of an unmoveable donkey. TBMs fit that bill and those who individualize their faith do not maintain the rigid posture needed for properly skewering the donkey.

This was enlightening to me, thanks for both comments MerrieMiss and Moksha. TBMs really are sitting ducks, especially if you were once TBM yourself. I know all the responses and all the tactics, I've used many of them on myself and others. Having a nuanced believing friend helps me understand how frustrating it must be for my family to talk with me now, as every time I say something new my target changes. They must feel like I am constantly moving the goalposts.

GoodBoy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:59 pm

Anon70 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:42 am Do you forget Santa isn't real when you don't talk or think about him for 11 months each year?

Love this.

But there is actually some truth to what he says. People believe what they want to believe. And if you can be isolated, humiliated, and treated like you are just not very smart and definitely not accepted, then you will WANT to believe hard enough that you might at least keep your mouth shut and nod your head when they say things you can't believe in, if for no other reason just so that you can regain some respect.

NOM makes me realize it is them that are crazy, not me. And that this is a big world, and Mormonism is a teeny tiny part of it, even if it fills up most of my life.

Great points. I think I am going to need this anchor to sanity a little extra for the next little while as my family shifts from shock to mobilizing to save me.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:34 pm Where does your friend get his Bushman/Givens type ideas? General Conference? Does he feel free to bring them up in Gospel Doctrine class?
Thanks for a great thread.

He has never been much of a TBM. No mission, but quite active. Tithing has gone back and forth his whole life. He is well versed in the real history of the church. It's always been hard to figure out where he fits for me. When I was a TBM it was clear he was not TBM which made a lot of people uncomfortable. He would get along very well here on NOM. I asked him if he know the Givens and he has never heard of them, so his thoughts appear to be all his own.

Emower wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:36 pm In a discussion with my dad over not watching conference, I mentioned that I participated in an online forum of the "less than faithful" variety. He said, "an internet forum?" The subtext was that Internet forums are a den of iniquity. He told me, "why would you expend effort on that but not on conference?"
I suppose he is right, I participate here and not on more faithful or more anti sites because you all align much closer to my attitudes than anything also. In a way I am choosing to be in an echo chamber. But that is what life is. Just because I have chosen something different doesn't make it wrong.
Our society prizes being different. We feel,good after watching a movie where the hero finds the courage to be himself. But that is somehow supposed to change with religion and God? I don't think so.

Yeah, internet forum raises all sorts of red flags. The big thing for me to prefer NOM to church for discussion is the freedom here to be open without fear of reprisal. I suppose a TBM could say the same thing about church for them, but I think you good people of NOM do a better job of critically considering people's differing perspectives and having thoughtful and thought-provoking discussions that are relevant to what is going on in my life.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:00 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 am "Do you still visit that website everyday?" because I told him I found a place where I don't feel so freaking alone in this.

Reply: "Do you still go to church every Sunday, read your scriptures, etc.?"

(THAT's not an echo chamber, is it?)

Haha, he actually pointed out that it was like sacrament meeting. He is well aware that sacrament meeting is an echo chamber, most of the SM echo chamber doesn't resonate well with him. His critique is more about me having my own beliefs and doing my thing instead of just finding a group to echo with because that will somehow make the beliefs no longer my own. I guess I could ask him how well he has assimilated to have all the cookie cutter SM beliefs as a response.

Emower wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:36 pm"why would you expend effort on that but not on conference?"

Because the people at NOM actually think about things and are willing to entertain new ideas. The conference speakers just say the same few things over and over and over, quoting and re-quoting each other year after year. I would be tempted to say, "when they finally say something that I haven't heard a thousand times, give me a call and I'll watch it on LDS.org.