NOM

Here is a quote from Elder Ulisses Soares in the Saturday morning session of General Conference I thought might be of interest.

It appears to be his belief that Satan uses "logic and reasoning" to lead people out of the Church:

In these moments of trial, the adversary—who is always on the lookout—tries to use our logic and reasoning against us. He tries to convince us that it is useless to live the principles of the gospel. Please remember that the logic of the natural man “receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him.” Remember that Satan “is an enemy [of] God, and [he] fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth [us] to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.” We must not allow him to deceive us; for when we do, we falter in our faith and lose the power to obtain God’s blessings.

Thoughts?

Not much to think about really. Satan is the all-purpose Boogeyman and when they have nothing else to go on the general authorities will always put him out of their pocket as the all-purpose explanation. They have no cogent arguments to refute logic so they deploy the only weapon they have. Who can refute the unprovable workings of a supernatural being? Funny how religious teachings are structured exactly like a con game.

Oliver Wendell Holmes was one of many legal scholars who stated this commonly known adage:

Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote:If you’re weak on the facts and strong on the law, pound the law. If you’re weak on the law and strong on the facts, pound the facts. If you’re weak on both, pound the table.

The LDS church is weak on the facts and unimpressive on the Bible. So they pound the table on Priesthood Authority and the Witness of the Spirit.

But there are Christian apologetic groups like Ratio Christ that will directly engage non-believers with logic and facts. Certainly their success rate is not perfect, but I have a lot of respect for entering this arena with their head held high. I have to grant some respect to FairMormon for attempting the same thing, although retreating to the witness of the spirit seems to happen with greater frequency than we find in Evangelical Christian circles.

Elder Soares never puts himself in a position where we can cross examine his assertions about Satan using logic and reason against us. This is a common tactic of LDS leaders these days and it definitely extends down to seminary teachers and Gospel Doctrine teachers. Elder Soares never puts himself in a position where we can cross examine his assertions about Satan using logic and reason against us. LDS leaders want us to discount reasoning and logic based only on their personal assertions.

It is interesting the qualities that have been assigned to Satan:

Bringer of Knowledge - take a bite out of that Apple!
Science - poor Copernicus got burnt at the stake over this quality.
Logic and Reasoning - Elder Ulisses Soares might even use these things in other aspects of his life.

Of course, there are other LDS sayings that run contrary to this such as, "the glory of God is intelligence". If this was the case, you would imagine Satan would revel in keeping us mired in superstition.

It fits with the anti-intellectual stance and rhetoric that historically the church has taken.

I just have to say that the ludicrousness of the subject line made me laugh out loud. Thanks, I needed that.

Satan is now using logic and reasoning against us? That diabolical bastard!

Good thing that our loving HF is still using fear and guilt, lest we all fall victim to that damned logic and reasoning!

Talking about Stan ruffles my feathers. It's completely ludicrous.
The irony of all ironies is the "They shall could evil good and good evil."
Evil and good have switched seats 20 times for me in the last few years.

I can see some truth in obsessing over logic while ignoring spirit/intuition/feeling tends to inspire at least apathy and at worst hopeless misery.

Still, (paraphrasing), "Faith is hope for what is not known, not the contrary to what is known." And as Jefferson said, God didn't give us brains to neglect them - we honor God (higher truth/Love) by thinking as well as feeling.

Truth will carve itself. People (and churches) who prioritize truth don't fear or shun it - but seek "truth wherever it's found." Only then can they have a strong, unshakable foundation.

Korihor wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:04 pm Talking about Stan ruffles my feathers. It's completely ludicrous.
The irony of all ironies is the "They shall could evil good and good evil."
Evil and good have switched seats 20 times for me in the last few years.

Just for the record, good:
Marrying other men's wives behind your wife's back.
Demand lots of money from poor people and keep it's use secret. Indoctrinating children with pedudice and reinforcing in by kicking out other children for predudicial reasons. Driving teenagers to suicide for no good reason. Trick innocent people believe you talk to God even though you know you don't.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:25 pm Just for the record, good:
Marrying other men's wives behind your wife's back.
Demand lots of money from poor people and keep it's use secret. Indoctrinating children with pedudice and reinforcing in by kicking out other children for predudicial reasons. Driving teenagers to suicide for no good reason. Trick innocent people believe you talk to God even though you know you don't.

The apologetic responses to each of these incidents is painful to read. If this list of sins were seen in a leading figure of another faith it would be fuel indignation and condemnation from the believers in our lives.

But it's Joseph Smith. LDS apologetic reasoning will accuse God of being inscrutably scandalous before Joseph Smith or subsequent prophets get accusations of impropriety. The "Race and the Priesthood" essay is a good example of this. It's not that Brigham Young or other prophets and apostles were racist. God set up the priesthood ban for his own unknown purposes and we can't use our own reasoning against this strange policy/doctrine.

As a relative of mine penned for the hymn O My Father, Truth is reason.

In the heav'ns are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me I've a mother there.

So apparently Satan and the church both use reason.

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:56 amSo apparently Satan and the church both use reason.

That may have once been true, but now they have realized that logic and reason are exclusive tools of Satan. Too bad, otherwise the church would be able to use them. Think how kick-ass those essays would be if they used logic that was superior to that of Satan and so-called science.

to be learned is good - unless you disagree with the church
the greeks required wisdom - the gospel was a stumbling block


We are taught from an early age that rationality only works when it defends the church.

It sounds like another way of saying "trust in the lord with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding" or "for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the lord."

He tries to convince us that it is useless to live the principles of the gospel.

What are the principles of the gospel people are rationalizing themselves out of following?

Love thy neighbour as thyself:
1) But if I hate myself...
2) That's neighbour with a "u" That means it's okay to hate my neighbor (sans "u").

Again, what are the principles of the gospel people are rationalizing themselves out of following?

I hate this idea. My best friend in the entire world cut me off four years ago because I "think too much."

You know, something interesting has happened since I starting allow myself to have my own thoughts about the world. There are no more demons in it.

There are "demons" in this world to the extent that humans imagine them, or create them through atrocities. Mankind is no longer subject to demonic whisperings. There is no more devil to fear. I must take responsibility for my own actions--there is no longer a devil to pin the blame on. And you know what? I feel like a "grown-up" now.

I refuse to live in a demon-haunted world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZtND08 ... Jsf-f5DOKu

achilles wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:35 pmYou know, something interesting has happened since I starting allow myself to have my own thoughts about the world. There are no more demons in it.

Absolutely! There is so much less to fear when you stop believing in all of the invisible monsters that religion has invented to keep you under their thumb.

It reminds me of President Packer's talk, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect" where he argued that it was Satan that was trying to get the CES teachers to tell the whole truth about church history, and that it was God that wanted them to tell half-truths that lead them to believe things that weren't supported by the facts. i.e. deceiving is God's plan, teaching the truth is Satan's plan.... a little backwards.

Not sure what peeves me more - the dishonesty, or the being treated like a sucker.

It makes me angry when I am told "you think too much"...and then treated like I'm stupid because I disagree with the party line.

When shame is used to enforce ignorance--and a power structure that flows from such control--that makes me angry. Its a form of manipulation and tyranny.