NOM

Just wondering why LDS folks can't see the difference between phony self-fulfilling "prophecy" and the type of prophecy described Biblically?

The Mormon Living magazine is trumpeting as prophecy the fact that 10 different temples were foretold by leadership to be erected in given areas of the world. To me this carries about as much validity as my setting my alarm clock for 5:00 a.m. and telling my wife that I'm getting up a little early tomorrow.

Biblically many times, God would give prophecy to real prophets about what was going to take place no matter what anyone did or didn't do to either stop it or make it come true. Essentially He would say, "Stand back, get out of the way because I'm going to do something that no one could say they knew was coming except the prophet I'm giving it to." And "I don't need your puny help to get it done, I'm the God of Israel and I will show everyone that there is no other god besides me." And then that thing would occur just as it was truly prophesied.

O.K......I think I hear my alarm going off. I must be a prophet......

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:50 pm O.K......I think I hear my alarm going off. I must be a prophet......

LOL! Prophecy in a church without prophetic ability has to devolve to this level. In the secretly recorded 70/church historian interview (posted on Mormon Stories podcast) the 70 repeated that line: building lots of buildings (temples) is fulfillment of prophecy. By that measure J W Marriott, Sam Walton, Howard Schultz (Starbucks), and even Donald Trump are true prophets of construction.

fh451

After studying both the bible and BOM with eyes wide open, I struggle to find any true prophecy. Most, if not all, of the prophecies (even about Jesus) are revisionist historical predictions at best and exaggerated claims in all reality.

Anyway, no revelation now or then.

The church was founded on fake prophesy.

Book of mormon talks about Joseph. (He wrote it to predict himself) same with

The "inspired" translation of the bible by smith conveniently prophisied himself (joseph) to bring about the restoration.

In other words the guy is a lying self serving fake. Its such an obvious scam that Ray Charles could see it was BS.

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:03 pm After studying both the bible and BOM with eyes wide open, I struggle to find any true prophecy. Most, if not all, of the prophecies (even about Jesus) are revisionist historical predictions at best and exaggerated claims in all reality.

Anyway, no revelation now or then.

One can debate Biblical prophecy but at a minimum, for believers, it gives a general pattern of what authentic prophecy would look like and it supplies a test of sorts for veracity.

The LDS kool-aid drinkers apparently don't have the critical thinking skills to see they aren't even in the ball park.

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:57 pm

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:03 pm After studying both the bible and BOM with eyes wide open, I struggle to find any true prophecy. Most, if not all, of the prophecies (even about Jesus) are revisionist historical predictions at best and exaggerated claims in all reality.

Anyway, no revelation now or then.

One can debate Biblical prophecy but at a minimum, for believers, it gives a general pattern of what authentic prophecy would look like and it supplies a test of sorts for veracity.

The LDS kool-aid drinkers apparently don't have the critical thinking skills to see they aren't even in the ball park.

You are dead on with your comments Palerider. I wasn't challenging your original observation. I completely agree.

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:50 pm Just wondering why LDS folks can't see the difference between phony self-fulfilling "prophecy" and the type of prophecy described Biblically?

Really, looking back on it all, there's not much to grasp on to for those poor TBMs. None of the big visions and miracles of the restoration happen anymore. Remember in the FV movie when the preacher tell JS that visions and things of the past biblical tales just don't happen anymore in their times? Pretty ironic.

So now you have TBMs attributing the miraculous to just about everything. I remember hearing some sobbing stay at home mom in an FTM telling about how she prayed to get a crayon stain out of a cherished piece of clothing and it worked and she was go grateful for that miracle! Tender little mercies = holy crap! It's like the bogus last days narrative; these saints need drama, to feel special, to feel like they are part of something exciting and big. In reality their lives are about as boring as it gets, sitting through all those mind numbing meetings, trying to convince themselves they are part of the big important select group of chosen ones all going to super VIP heaven.

I remember a lesson I taught in GD wherein I had crunched the numbers of members, the growth rates, etc. and compared them to the global population and growth rate. It was an eye opener for me (stacked it up on the shelf). Only about .02% of the world's population are the Mormon super special chosen ones? What about the gospel filling the whole earth? I thought I had been taught that we had to have at least knocked on every door in every country before Christ came again; you know, the stone cut out of the mountain without hands? We hadn't even scratched the surface. That's when I began to be suspicious about the last days narrative and all the world statistics that show the world is trending better, that other religions are much bigger and growing faster.

The temple building is very blatant and self-fulfilling. Honestly, I thought they would be to 200 temples so far. But even one new temple being announced in conference is exciting for TBMs, they don't have anything else miraculous to celebrate.

Who tells us what prophesy is?
Prophets do.

Who tells us the church was restored?
Joseph Smith.

Who tells us the government isn't corrupt?
The politicians.

Who tells my wife I'm the best lover?
I do!

See the pattern yet?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:01 am Who tells my wife I'm the best lover?
I do!

Literally laughing out loud! Red Ryder never disappoints! (Not even in the bedroom, according to his self proclamation.)

It is never a good thing to hear a prophecy that a temple should be built with Carrara marble and then find that the prophet works for a marble company in Carrara, Italy.

Prophecies that benefit the prophet are among those items that make you go hmmm. "The Lord spake and said that you should give me your wife and the mint condition edition of Fantastic Four #1." This makes sense until you find the prophet is an avid comic collector.

I think the most dramatic prophecy regarding an LDS Temple was that of the Nauvoo Temple Multi-Generational Space Ark constructed at Tycho Station which is run by the Outer Planet Alliance. The writers did have some great inspiration in realizing that only the Mormons would have the willingness and financial resources to undertake such a project.


There is a very large gold statue of Moroni at on the steeple of the Nauvoo Temple Space Ark.

Diogenes was a Greek philosopher and one of the founders of Cynic philosophy. One of his quotes I've always enjoyed,

"When I look upon seamen, men of science and philosophers, man is the wisest of all beings; when I look upon priests and prophets nothing is as contemptible as man."

As someone mentioned, these are self-fulfilling prophecies, which is nothing more than a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the action of the person(s) making the prediction. If I say, "One day I'm going to be debt free", and then I work toward doing so, is that really a prophecy? Therefore, if the church says, "Were going to build many more temples", that is not a prophecy, it is a self-fulfilling prediction, or more directly simply the fulfilling of a corporate goal.

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:57 pm One can debate Biblical prophecy but at a minimum, for believers, it gives a general pattern of what authentic prophecy would look like and it supplies a test of sorts for veracity.

The LDS kool-aid drinkers apparently don't have the critical thinking skills to see they aren't even in the ball park.

Comments like this always cause me to double take. It seems akin to ridiculing someone for sacrificing a chicken to secure a good harvest and saying - "You idiot...everyone knows you wear this crystal medallion for a good crop!!"

Unfair comparison? Maybe but chalk that up to years of defending mormonism, then concluding it untrue, and then listening to MANY people claim they practice REAL and RATIONAL religion while I was apparently a kool-aid drinking moron for 25 years. Perhaps I'm suffering from some sort of spiritual PTSD but trust me, I thought about this stuff a lot and in my former mindset, new temples would fit quite nicely into my view of mormonism growing and filling the whole world (maybe not in Saratoga Springs though!!). I look at it now and it looks like a religion with more money than sense but if mormonism is true is it completely irrational to think a temple in Kenya is God's work?

So I'm curious, and this is a genuine question, what does "authentic" prophecy look like? I really, sincerely want to know how your rational view of this makes other religious people look like babbling irrational fools in comparison. From my reading of the bible I see plenty of vague-ness (wars and rumors of wars?), retro-fitting (many aspects of Jesus birth and childhood?) and self-fulfilling prophecy (was it really surprising that Jesus got himself killed?). What is your veracity test?

LaMachina wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:28 am So I'm curious, and this is a genuine question, what does "authentic" prophecy look like?

You make a good point about ancient vs. modern prophets not having a leg up on each other. I mean, sure the ancients might have been self-announced following some sort of vision, but they did not have the power of a voice vote conferring them the title in accordance with the by-laws!!! Heck, those ancient prophets might not even have been relatives or in-laws.

How does one test the validity of a prophet? It is not like we can have them predict the brackets for the 2018 NCAA basketball tournament. That would cause havoc at the sports betting line at the Stateline Casino in Wendover, Nevada. The faithful might trample one another placing their bet.

LaMachina wrote:So I'm curious, and this is a genuine question, what does "authentic" prophecy look like? I really, sincerely want to know how your rational view of this makes other religious people look like babbling irrational fools in comparison. From my reading of the bible I see plenty of vague-ness (wars and rumors of wars?), retro-fitting (many aspects of Jesus birth and childhood?) and self-fulfilling prophecy (was it really surprising that Jesus got himself killed?). What is your veracity test?

This was the ultimate final dagger in all things religious for me. It hurt my brain to throw out the crazy mormon stuff and then turn to the bible and try to accept a virgin/immaculate conception, talking donkeys, and dudes that walked on water. If you're going to believe in those three, than magic peepstones, polygamy panties, and sacred handshakes shouldn't cause a stir.

I also understand that our human brains are wired for survival so we conjure up belief in magical things to cope with our complete lack of knowledge when the lights go out and we stop breathing.

So back to your question. What is a reliable veracity test?

I understand Palerider's point about how much biblical prophecy differs from latter day prophecy, but certainly it is true that once you discover that your particular emperor has no clothes, it isn't difficult to see that none of the others really ever had any either.

We all thought we had the real veracity test.

I'm afraid I'm in line behind RR wondering what the heel happened?

If there ever were any real prophets why haven't any of them come to answer our sincere questions?

Actually as I reflect on it, many have been telling us about our folly in believing for decades.

Does anyone know of the last prophecy given by modern-day LDS leader?

In 2011 the Ensign had an article titled, "40 Years of Prophetic Messages" - https://www.lds.org/new-era/2011/01/40- ... s?lang=eng There are no prophecies used as an example, just messages given by prophets.

There are plenty of incorrect prophecies in the history of the church, where things were taught as such, but now have proven to not to be. My search has found no prophet (this would include the entire Q15 since they are ordained as prophets) since Joseph Smith has prophesied, however the church has reversed "prophecies" such as blacks and the PH and polygamy (at least on this earth).

It has gotten to the point wherein we try to determine what is a prophecy versus man's opinion. The term, "Thus saith the Lord" is a term you will find no modern day LDS prophet saying.

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:31 pm Does anyone know of the last prophecy given by modern-day LDS leader?

I think this was the prophecy made by President Nelson when he was addressing a group in Hawaii. He said God revealed that they should not allow the children of same-sex marriages to be members of the LDS Church.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:30 am

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:31 pm Does anyone know of the last prophecy given by modern-day LDS leader?

I think this was the prophecy made by President Nelson when he was addressing a group in Hawaii. He said God revealed that they should not allow the children of same-sex marriages to be members of the LDS Church.

Yes. Elder Nelson prophesied for the prophet in that case.