NOM

As I watched Conference and the church announcing they had a 155 temples and six more planned I thought to my self think how much good could be done with the money those temples require !!!! I struggle with that thought over and over again . Anyone else ??

I struggled with these types of thoughts , still do.

Then I look in the mirror and think I'm also a selfish asshole as well. I drive a decent car (ok, a Honda), I wear a dress shirt and slacks to work, i stop and get a coffee at the covenience store in the morning and drive past a homeless person with a sign, pleading for help as they are hungry and cold.

I just keep driving.

We can't control what others do, we'll go mad in such an endeavor. Learn from your own experiences and of others. Do what you can to make the world a better place and enjoy the journey.


As a side note, temples do provide some good at some degree. A close acquaintance of mine worked for a painting company that did the Payson temple. Sufficeth to say, he's not a tithing paying member. But that project gave him several months of a good steady paycheck. Yes, the higher ups made lots of money, but it still put food on his table.

I really struggle with the make the world a better place thing. I told myself I would give tithing money to better places or to fast offerings. I haven't. I have just pocketed that money and it has felt damn good to do so. I guess I am a selfish asshole too.

I used to struggle with that also, until I stopped paying tithing. Now I really don't think about it.

The tithing issue with my tbm wife was worked out by some compromise. Since I stopped paying I have had $38,000 extra

Yes, they could have done a lot with that money, no doubt about it. It is especially ironic and galling given their divine claims about following Christ and his teachings about caring for the poor, and the admonition to be humble and avoid ostentatious display. Given the world we live in, I can care a little less about it to an extent: it's a big deal in Utah, but just a blip on the world stage. The amount of money wasted on ridiculous projects and questionable ideologies is staggering, from billion dollar sports stadiums (funded by taxpayers in many cases) to wasteful wars (both in money and especially human lives). So yeah, the church's hypocrisy is pretty obvious, but as time goes on I worry less about it and more about other things. Sorry that probably doesn't cheer you up any .

fh451

fh451 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:05 am Yes, they could have done a lot with that money, no doubt about it. It is especially ironic and galling given their divine claims about following Christ and his teachings about caring for the poor, and the admonition to be humble and avoid ostentatious display. Given the world we live in, I can care a little less about it to an extent: it's a big deal in Utah, but just a blip on the world stage. The amount of money wasted on ridiculous projects and questionable ideologies is staggering, from billion dollar sports stadiums (funded by taxpayers in many cases) to wasteful wars (both in money and especially human lives). So yeah, the church's hypocrisy is pretty obvious, but as time goes on I worry less about it and more about other things. Sorry that probably doesn't cheer you up any .

fh451

I remember one of john Larsen's podcasts he talked about the temple and the churches ostentatious display of wealth. When they have the temple walk through before dedication you can't ask any questions. You just walk through and say wow that's some fine craftsmanship! Italian imported marble and rare imported woods.

It's the prosperity doctrine from the Book of Mormon at its finest.

The temple is man made, and so is Mormonism.

20/20hind wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:45 pm

fh451 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:05 am Yes, they could have done a lot with that money, no doubt about it. It is especially ironic and galling given their divine claims about following Christ and his teachings about caring for the poor, and the admonition to be humble and avoid ostentatious display. Given the world we live in, I can care a little less about it to an extent: it's a big deal in Utah, but just a blip on the world stage. The amount of money wasted on ridiculous projects and questionable ideologies is staggering, from billion dollar sports stadiums (funded by taxpayers in many cases) to wasteful wars (both in money and especially human lives). So yeah, the church's hypocrisy is pretty obvious, but as time goes on I worry less about it and more about other things. Sorry that probably doesn't cheer you up any .

fh451

I remember one of john Larsen's podcasts he talked about the temple and the churches ostentatious display of wealth. When they have the temple walk through before dedication you can't ask any questions. You just walk through and say wow that's some fine craftsmanship! Italian imported marble and rare imported woods.

It's the prosperity doctrine from the Book of Mormon at its finest.

The temple is man made, and so is Mormonism.

Amen, brother!

As I was flipping channels I remember one of the GAs mentioning something about feeling guilty that he could not do more to help the poor. It was a poignant moment that pissed me off because of the millions of tithes spent on these malls and temples and who knows what else. Certainly not nearly enough on humanitarian needs. If this was the one true church then it would be the one doing the most for the poor and needy, but I don't think it's percentage is the highest per cap on the list of Christian faiths.

No where in the NT did Jesus tell of the demands of attending the temple to assure a place to dwell with Him. He did however discuss the need to help others.

In the Gospel of Luke, for example, an expert in the law notes the Hebrew Bible injunction to "love thy neighbor as thyself" and asks Jesus, "Who is my neighbor?" Jesus responds with the familiar parable of the Good Samaritan. It seems the brethren need become familiar parable of the Good Samaritan. Through the parable, Jesus essentially tells his listeners: everyone is your neighbor, even the stranger by the side of the road. Those who show mercy obey God's law. I would like to see a more continual reminder to them of the need to care for others, here on this earth now, and not be so fixated on the temple.

The brethren live within a bubble, and they clearly are constantly being told how wonderful they are, what wonderful messages they give, and how they are doing God's work to perfection. But it is "The Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome. The story and metaphor involves a situation wherein the overwhelming (usually unempowered) majority of observers willingly share in a collective ignorance of an obvious fact, despite individually recognising the absurdity. That being said, most/many of the close observers bow their heads and say yes even if there is the absurdity of building new temples as an example.

When times are difficult the brethren's only thought is to build temples, and of course they are told what a wonderful revelation that is, as opposed to saying, "Rather than spend the money to increase the church's wealth by building temples (see additional tithing being collected to enter the temples), let's build soup kitchens, hospitals or orphanages. Let's offer free medical assistance through clinics throughout the world."

In general commercial building costs (and it is clear a temple is above "general"), on a per foot basis the temples are costing anywhere between $10 million an $30 million. The San Diego Temple cost $24 million and that was 25 years ago. The Philadelphia Pennsylvania Temple costs $70 million to build. The lot alone cost is $ 7.5 million. I would venture to guess the New York City temple costs would be similar, if not greater than Philadelphia. When I worked in Hong Kong the conventional wisdom there had that temple costing $100 million, and I would venture to guess the Rome temple would be in that range. Who are they serving spending that kind of money on the Great and Spacious Buildings?

They don't seem to realize that throughout Luke, Jesus breaks through class barriers, consorting with sinners, the ritually suspect, lower-class people, the "other." That's what got him into trouble all the time! He socialized with people who made others uncomfortable—sort of how we might be uncomfortable with people who live on the street today. That was his "ministry of healing"—caring for the poor and others. And yet the brethren seem satisfied in running a corporation of growth and prosperity. If it is in fact the Church of Jesus Christ, teach and live his principles, not the principles to enhance the portfolios.

Just my two cents. . . . .

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:38 pm Just my two cents. . . . .

...damn. This was a good post. Welcome to the board!

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:05 am

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:38 pm Just my two cents. . . . .

...damn. This was a good post. Welcome to the board!

You mean, glad you finally found the new board.

G2D - even though you appear to be wearing a suit to a Jazz game, at least tell me you still have your flip-flops handy. (At least I think that was your avatar.)

The further I distance myself from Mormonism the less things like this get to me. It used to bother me for the same reason it bothers you – that money could be spent on so much. But instead I have started to look at the positive. I’m the only one in my family that is not a temple goer. I see the peace and joy that going to the temple brings my family members and friends. And for that reason, I am not bothered by the amount of money they spend on temples. Eh, it’s not my money (anymore and it hasn’t been for a while) so they can spend it anyway they want.

shadow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:51 pm

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:05 am

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:38 pm Just my two cents. . . . .

...damn. This was a good post. Welcome to the board!

You mean, glad you finally found the new board.

G2D - even though you appear to be wearing a suit to a Jazz game, at least tell me you still have your flip-flops handy. (At least I think that was your avatar.)

Actually, that's President Monson. . . . . . I was in a corporate box with him at a Jazz game. We were not allowed to take photos of him, so that is the best 007 photo I could manage. There is a lot more to that story and how we were treated by his "handlers/body guards" which I could tell.

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:14 pm

shadow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:51 pm

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:05 am

...damn. This was a good post. Welcome to the board!

You mean, glad you finally found the new board.

G2D - even though you appear to be wearing a suit to a Jazz game, at least tell me you still have your flip-flops handy. (At least I think that was your avatar.)

Actually, that's President Monson. . . . . . I was in a corporate box with him at a Jazz game. We were not allowed to take photos of him, so that is the best 007 photo I could manage. There is a lot more to that story and how we were treated by his "handlers/body guards" which I could tell.

I think I remember when you told this the first time around, very interesting, and not what I would have expected. I also remember somebody telling a story about him stealing their cookies at a jazz game.

LostMormon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:42 pm

Grace2Daisy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:14 pm

shadow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:51 pm

You mean, glad you finally found the new board.

G2D - even though you appear to be wearing a suit to a Jazz game, at least tell me you still have your flip-flops handy. (At least I think that was your avatar.)

Actually, that's President Monson. . . . . . I was in a corporate box with him at a Jazz game. We were not allowed to take photos of him, so that is the best 007 photo I could manage. There is a lot more to that story and how we were treated by his "handlers/body guards" which I could tell.

I think I remember when you told this the first time around, very interesting, and not what I would have expected. I also remember somebody telling a story about him stealing their cookies at a jazz game.

Yup. . . . I went into more detail on the page which asks to describe avatars. Nice to be back.

Donning my TBM hat and setting it at a jaunty angle. Jesus loved the temple and worshipping there. Cleansing the temple is the only example we have of Jesus showing any wrath. Today, that example is used to justify a lot of abusive behavior. I'm not sure how Jesus would feel about that. Still, of you were to voice your objections to the temple, I'm sure you'd get a nice scolding about how the Savior loved the temple.

Donning a hat that considers the historical perspective and not even TBMs can convincingly refute it. The Savior wasn't big on hierarchies and I truly don't think a hierarchical hereafter is a place He would consider heaven. The Savior didn't seem to be that big on marriage. The Savior seemed to be more about "found" families, rather than biological families. He also didn't seem too concerned about dead people. Having said all that, I'm not sure how He would feel about how our temples​ are used, today.

Also, I'm not sure how we would feel about temple worship in His time. The temple was very different in Jesus's time. There were blood sacrifices and women and children weren't even aloud inside. Women may not be thrilled with veiling their faces, because they feel cut off from God. Hey, at least we're inside in an LDS temple.

Donning my NOM hat at a straight angle

You're right. These temples are an enormous waste of money. Money that is better spent elsewhere. Money that could be used in a manner to truly serve Christ.

Taking off my hat and addressing you bare-headed

Have you ever given money to someone and then been chagrined at how they spend it? Once you give money and the money is received, unless there is some sort of contractual arrangement, that money is no longer yours. The money now belongs to the recipient for them to use as they see fit. Even if how they use it goes against your principles. Neither you nor I can change how that money is spent. I believe that as a 501(c)3, the church has an obligation to provide their financials. It's a matter of public trust. The fact they don't, I find troubling. They may be completely above board, but their not disclosing how donated funds are handled is not something I consider trustworthy in a charity.

I can't change how the church does things, but I can change where my money goes. If I don't like how a charity is operating, I don't donate to it.

I realize this is probably a fight you're having with your wife, though. Your wife wants you to pay tithing and to go to the temple. I'll let you work that out. Personally, I see it as you earn the money and you can decide whether or not to tithe it. However, in the eyes of the law, what you earn is half hers. So you could split your funds. Let her tithe her half. She can also get a job and tithe her earnings.

20/20hind wrote: ↑Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:38 am I used to struggle with that also, until I stopped paying tithing. Now I really don't think about it.

The tithing issue with my tbm wife was worked out by some compromise. Since I stopped paying I have had $38,000 extra

Similar here now, but I was pretty upset for a while.
And I do see how, according to their own scripture, they are robbing both members (charging for worthiness & based on income instead of increase) & robbing the poor (Deut. 14:28-29).

Having seen how so many live in severe poverty (no clean water, little to eat etc), it still bothers me that the church leaders continue to steal from the poor & add to (rather than alleviate) suffering. Now our tithes go as they were intended, and according to the greatest commandments.

Yes, I went through the same struggles, it is completely normal. Give yourself time to work through things.

I listened to the entirety of conference and this was one of the first times I didn't get worked up over it. My smartwatch tracks my heart rate and it recorded a 50 bpm rate during conference. Just shows how much less conference is affecting me now.

Things will get better for you!

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:30 pm I believe that as a 501(c)3, the church has an obligation to provide their financials. It's a matter of public trust. The fact they don't, I find troubling. They may be completely above board, but their not disclosing how donated funds are handled is not something I consider trustworthy in a charity.

Religious institutions are excepted from any requirement to disclose financials. Many do anyway, because they also see it as a matter of public trust, but many don't. IMO, it is unethical for the church not to disclose financials, but it's not illegal. We do gain some glimpse into the financial workings of the church in countries where they are required to disclose, e.g. Canada and Great Britain. But that is a tiny minority of the church's financial empire.

In regards to church financials, the recent IOT "General Conference" podcast had what I thought was a hilarious and skewering segment spoofing the church's semi-annual conference "financial report." Basically it says "we have determined with careful scrutiny that we've spent money exactly like we wanted to, and the details are none of your darn business."

fh451

fh451 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:24 am

Give It Time wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:30 pm I believe that as a 501(c)3, the church has an obligation to provide their financials. It's a matter of public trust. The fact they don't, I find troubling. They may be completely above board, but their not disclosing how donated funds are handled is not something I consider trustworthy in a charity.

Religious institutions are excepted from any requirement to disclose financials. Many do anyway, because they also see it as a matter of public trust, but many don't. IMO, it is unethical for the church not to disclose financials, but it's not illegal. We do gain some glimpse into the financial workings of the church in countries where they are required to disclose, e.g. Canada and Great Britain. But that is a tiny minority of the church's financial empire.

In regards to church financials, the recent IOT "General Conference" podcast had what I thought was a hilarious and skewering segment spoofing the church's semi-annual conference "financial report." Basically it says "we have determined with careful scrutiny that we've spent money exactly like we wanted to, and the details are none of your darn business."

fh451

I didn't know religions were excluded. Good to know. Interestingly, I've been having some discussions about what is legal and what is ethicalI, lately. Igree with you. Just like it's legal to forcibly drag a paying customer off a flight, doesn't mean it's ethical and certainly doesn't win customers.