NOM

I have to say that I appreciate E Uchtdorf's talk in this morning's session of conference. His sermon on the ineffectiveness of fear-based rhetoric in the Church was very gratifying.

It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior, but that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and want to obey Heavenly Father.

To be honest with all of you, it is the rampant use of manipulative tactics like fear and guilt that keeps me from ever wanting to go back to attendance in Church meetings. I might be able to get past the teachings of literal interpretations of scripture. But as long as fear and guilt are employed by speakers and teachers, I want no part of it. I spent too much of my life fretting over fear and guilt. It's enough, already. I want to be happy and know that I'm a good person (as I am).

I hope his talk has a beneficial effect on the Church. It might take a long time to change this, however. The use of fear and guilt are deeply ingrained into the Mormon psyche.

I really liked Utchdorf's talk too, and am a bit surprised it hasn't come up on ths forum a little more; it almost completely negated what Clayton and that very ironically woman named Joy were saying just a few talks previous. It was almost a slap in the face to the conditionally loving God ideals, and the shame, coercion and manipulative culture that is such a strong part of mormonism. Maybe we're all rightly a little cynical to his endgame, and rightly so. But I'll be a little more cautiously optimistic. As I said on another thread, at least it gives a little more ammo to combat the passive aggressive people in my life. But I fully enjoyed listening to that talk, and I'm sure it made others mighty uncomfortable.

By the same token, that Christofferson talk, the next one right after this Utchdorf bomb was disturbing to say the least. Shook my head at the rhetoric of the "shame, shunning" culture that Christofferson claims "the world" has, while he can't even conceive that this takes place in the church he's a leader of. Unbelievable. I've experienced more shame and shunning in the church than anywhere else, merely because I think differently than the rest of the group. And lots of people on this forum have felt similarly. That's why Utchdorf's talk was so refreshing; he KNOWS the fearmongering is a real part of church culture.

I'm glad you had a good experience listening to this conference talk; compared to the last one, where I felt nothing but resignation and anger, this one wasn't too bad. One hopes that the rhetoric becomes praxis, but that's where I'll reserve my cynicism.

Isn't the plan of happiness all about fear though? I mean, HF loves you so much that if you don't obey every rule his chosen leaders dictate you can never return to his presence. Ever. Right?

No matter how Uchtdorf or any of the others spell it out, it's all based on the fear that god will punish you for all eternity if you don't toe the line.

Help me see how I'm wrong.

w2mz wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:16 pm Isn't the plan of happiness all about fear though? I mean, HF loves you so much that if you don't obey every rule his chosen leaders dictate you can never return to his presence. Ever. Right?

No matter how Uchtdorf or any of the others spell it out, it's all based on the fear that god will punish you for all eternity if you don't toe the line.

Help me see how I'm wrong.

You're wrong. Now go pray about about to remind yourself that you were wrong.

See? All better.

President Uchtdorf is just playing "good cop". He is not the great NOM hope many wish him to be. He is a fantastic speaker, has more charisma than the rest of the Big 15 combined with most 70s thrown in to boot, and I am told by lady friends that the moniker "Silver Fox" is apt. But he is part of the establishment of LDS leadership, don't kid yourself. "Doubt your snouts" showed that there are limits to how "feel good" his "feel good" brand of Mormonism is. However positive his Conference talks may be, what has he really ever done to change the status quo? Talk is cheap, but he wields talk well.

When his kinder, gentler words actually ever make a kinder, gentler Church, I will take it all back. Until then I am a skeptic.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:11 amWhen his kinder, gentler words actually ever make a kinder, gentler Church, I will take it all back. Until then I am a skeptic.

And that is indeed the problem. Just like when Elder Holland gave his "big tent" talk a while back, but every policy coming out of SLC since acts to make the tent smaller (e.g., the children of gay parents). Holland gave another "the church is a big tent" talk this conference, but just saying people are welcome doesn't make them welcome.

fh451

The-Slilver-FOX wrote:It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior, but that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and want to obey Heavenly Father.

Disclaimer: I didn't listen to more than ~30 seconds of conference, and even that made me queasy...

That being said, I highly disagree with the statement that the influence of fear is temporary. (As highlighted in the quote above.) As others have mentioned, the LDS corporation CONSTANTLY uses fear, guilt and shame to influence it's members. I have experienced a lifetime of fear myself, and also watched that influence in parents who live in constant fear of "losing" their children in the afterlife, and constantly hoping that if they are "just good enough", mormon god will take away their children's "agency" in the afterlife, and force those children to become perfect celestial kingdom kids.

Honestly, fear, guilt and shame are the most important tools in the LDS Corporation's tool belt. They constantly tell their members that being a normal human being is not good enough, and in fact if you are a normal human being you are broken and / or ill. Then the LDS Corporation sells it's members a completely useless homeopathic remedy, which does absolutely nothing to cure the brokenness/illness, and actually perpetuates the fear/guilt/shame trifecta.

What a complete, incredibly bad joke...

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:13 am

The-Slilver-FOX wrote:It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior, but that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and want to obey Heavenly Father.

Disclaimer: I didn't listen to more than ~30 seconds of conference, and even that made me queasy...

That being said, I highly disagree with the statement that the influence of fear is temporary. (As highlighted in the quote above.) As others have mentioned, the LDS corporation CONSTANTLY uses fear, guilt and shame to influence it's members. I have experienced a lifetime of fear myself, and also watched that influence in parents who live in constant fear of "losing" their children in the afterlife, and constantly hoping that if they are "just good enough", mormon god will take away their children's "agency" in the afterlife, and force those children to become perfect celestial kingdom kids.

Honestly, fear, guilt and shame are the most important tools in the LDS Corporation's tool belt. They constantly tell their members that being a normal human being is not good enough, and in fact if you are a normal human being you are broken and / or ill. Then the LDS Corporation sells it's members a completely useless homeopathic remedy, which absolutely nothing to cure the brokenness/illness, and actually perpetuates the fear/guilt/shame trifecta.

What a complete, incredibly bad joke...

Let us assume for a minute that Uchtdorf is trying to change the church to move away from so much fear and guilt. That assumption isn't too far out there. He is in a good position to try to influence church culture. By telling people that fear is a shallow motivation that does not last, he gently discourages its use. If he told the truth that fear is THE most powerful motivation, (I learned that in my psychology classes) then people will want to use it more. So, he fibs and tells them it doesn't work. The truth is it works, but like many powerful medicines, it has nasty nasty side effects. Like Chemo, it is almost as likely to kill you as the cancer itself.

But funny thing is that if he told about the harmful side effects of fear/shame/guilt, then he would be guilty of exactly what he is preaching against. He would use fear of side effects to get people to stop using fear???

Edited to add, that he is correct in that it is only short term. Fear turns to anger and the person rebels. Don't they fluff? So, it is only short term. You can only control another human being so long before they resent it and rebel.

So, fear is powerful in the short run. But think of car accidents. We are all afraid of deadly car accidents, but not near as afraid of car accidents as terrorists bombings. Yet we are many many times more likely to be killed in a car accident. But we live with that fear daily and the effect wears off. Yawn, car accident. It is too normal and mundane to keep our level of terror up, compared to the rare terrorist bombing, shark attack, or zombie attack. Fear wears off if it is too constant.

In the long run, rewarding behavior works much better than fear.

So, really, he is more correct than not.

w2mz wrote: ↑Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:16 pm Isn't the plan of happiness all about fear though? I mean, HF loves you so much that if you don't obey every rule his chosen leaders dictate you can never return to his presence. Ever. Right?

No matter how Uchtdorf or any of the others spell it out, it's all based on the fear that god will punish you for all eternity if you don't toe the line.

Help me see how I'm wrong.

Can't 'cause you're not. That is all.

Did President Uchtdorf say "since fear is a poor motivator, we are removing all fear based motivations from Church practices"? Did he say they are going to get rid of temple recommend interviews so that people aren't afraid to not pay tithing? Did he say they were going to modify teachings so that spouses don't fear for their unbelieving spouses? Did he say they were going to eliminate youth interviews? Condemnation and shaming from all Conference talks? Criticism of those who ask questions? Excommunication of those who criticize the Church?

Nope. Nope nope nopey nope. He said some touchy feely warm fuzzy things about not using fear, but did not address a single one of the many ways the Church has institutionalized the use of fear to keep its members in line.

His words mean nothing. The institution he helps lead does not diminish its use of fear in the slightest as a result of his words.

The more I think about it, the more this upsets me. It is the Church itself that uses fear and guilt - President Uchtdorf makes it sound as though some local leaders use it, and if they stopped there would be no guilt and fear in the membership. In effect, he is blaming lower level leaders for what the institution itself is doing. It is sleight of hand. It is the Church itself that uses the guilt and fear as motivation - he is obscuring that fact rather than owning up to it.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:26 am ...<snip....

Edited to add, that he is correct in that it is only short term. Fear turns to anger and the person rebels. Don't they fluff? So, it is only short term. You can only control another human being so long before they resent it and rebel.

So, fear is powerful in the short run. But think of car accidents. We are all afraid of deadly car accidents, but not near as afraid of car accidents as terrorists bombings. Yet we are many many times more likely to be killed in a car accident. But we live with that fear daily and the effect wears off. Yawn, car accident. It is too normal and mundane to keep our level of terror up, compared to the rare terrorist bombing, shark attack, or zombie attack. Fear wears off if it is too constant.

In the long run, rewarding behavior works much better than fear.

So, really, he is more correct than not.

So... Could we put the "fear of eternal damnation" or "fear of losing one's family in the afterlife" in the same category as terrorist bombings, shark attacks and zombie attacks?

Basically not real, yet still a powerful, constant motivator?

I do agree with everything you said. And you notice that I didn't say that I think Uchtdorf has a snowballs chance in hell of changing the church. I said let's assume he wants to try to change the culture. He is only one man and it would take all 15 to try to change the whole church and the institutional fear mongering, and that just ain't a gonna happen. And even if it did, it would be too little too late, because for many of us, the damage was done a long time ago.

But really, there are two problems with the way the church operates and one is the institutional fear mongering, but the other is cultural. It is the members down in the trenches teaching fear. For me personally, it was YW leaders going above and beyond the lesson material to try to scare the young women into remaining virgins till marriage. I compared what was in the lesson book just a few years later and the fear crap was not even part of the lesson. It was the teacher adding to the lesson to try to scare us into believing that if we ever had sex we were damaged goods and no one would ever love us and even God would hate us. To a sexual abuse victim the shame was devastating, worse even than the sexual abuse itself. But it was not the institutional stuff you are talking about, but a culture where girls are seen as damaged goods f they are not "pure". And once a girls has sex, it is over. You cannot repent and bring back virginity. You are damaged for life, so don't do it.

If Uchtforf's talk can get one young women's leader to cut back on fear of being damaged goods, then his talk has succeeded, even if it doesn't change the whole church.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:35 am

alas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:26 am ...<snip....

Edited to add, that he is correct in that it is only short term. Fear turns to anger and the person rebels. Don't they fluff? So, it is only short term. You can only control another human being so long before they resent it and rebel.

So, fear is powerful in the short run. But think of car accidents. We are all afraid of deadly car accidents, but not near as afraid of car accidents as terrorists bombings. Yet we are many many times more likely to be killed in a car accident. But we live with that fear daily and the effect wears off. Yawn, car accident. It is too normal and mundane to keep our level of terror up, compared to the rare terrorist bombing, shark attack, or zombie attack. Fear wears off if it is too constant.

In the long run, rewarding behavior works much better than fear.

So, really, he is more correct than not.

So... Could we put the "fear of eternal damnation" or "fear of losing one's family in the afterlife" in the same category as terrorist bombings, shark attacks and zombie attacks?

Basically not real, yet still a powerful, constant motivator?

I don't know cause I never wanted my birth family for eternity (that would be hell) and by the time I was married, I didn't believe in that kind of God, so that fear never scared me. To me that was just a booggy man I didn't believe in.

But putting on my psychology hat, the fact that it is constant is like the car accident. We just get used to it and live with it as background noise. Until our kid doesn't wear a seat belt, then we freak out. So, when our kid drinks coffee, the fear of losing our family is triggered in a way that makes it real.

It was the constant shame and never being good enough that got to me, never being good enough because of somebody else's choices.

Don't forget the fear of taking your garments off.

That's a real doozy.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:43 am If Uchtforf's talk can get one young women's leader to cut back on fear of being damaged goods, then his talk has succeeded, even if it doesn't change the whole church.

Yes, that is true, that would be a good thing. I really hope that is what happens. I am still a little cheesed off that he didn't acknowledge the biggest causes of fear and guilt in the Church - which is the organization itself.