NOM

My kids had their primary program yesterday. A few days before, I asked my oldest son what his favorite song was from the program. He told me it was Praise to the Man.

My heart sank. I despise that song so much.

My son is a very thoughtful and mature kid. I asked him why he liked that song. One of the reasons he likes it is for the actual music. I was glad to hear that and to have an opening to tell him that the music is actually a Scottish patriotic song that was co-opted for the hymn. My son plays a couple instruments, so he liked hearing this history.

My other son was also part of the conversation and asked if I like Praise to the Man. I told them that I like the music, but I don't really like the song because I think if we're singing praises through hymn, it should be to God, and not a man (never mind my thoughts about what is or if there is a god). I just couldn't bring myself to tell them that I like the song, but I thought it was a fairly benign response to his question, considering my true feelings about the hymn.

We took our kids to a pumpkin patch yesterday (on the Sabbath!!) We had a great time. It has been quite wet here, even more than for Seattle, so I went to get the car from the parking lot so everyone wouldn't have to trek through the mud after we had just washed our boots off. Somehow during those 2 minutes, the topic came up and my kids told my wife what I had said. She became quite upset and said that I shouldn't be saying anything negative about the church to the kids. I asked her if saying that I thought we should be praising god instead of praising men is actually something negative. We didn't continue the conversation past that because it wasn't the time or place.

We got home, carved pumpkins, and watched the end of a very depressing Seahawks game, but the topic never came up again. However, the mood was definitely altered. I think the specific topic is not really worth fighting over, but I don't really like where expectations are set with regard to what is deemed acceptable for me to say to the kids about the church. This isn't a new problem, and I don't see it resolving itself any time soon, but it's so frustrating to have an enjoyable afternoon derailed by differences with a church and my discomfort singing praises to Joseph Smith.

I think you handled that as well as could be expected. I have a TBM aunt that always said she hated the hymn "Families can be together Forever", both because of the music and the message. Despite what the leaders try to portray, there shouldn't be a problem with cafeteria mormonism. Even TBMs have aspects of the church they don't like if you can get them to be honest. I would bet your wife wouldn't have had an issue with your comment if you were still TBM. Its rough when you actually have to be even more careful of what you say than you did as a TBM.

I don't generally feel comfortable singing praises to sexual predators who have sex with teenage girls behind their wives' backs. Am I somehow immoral that I refuse to sing that song? It was the last song of our Primary program yesterday too - I don't think that is a coincidence.

You could never get her to see it this way, but my question is why she thinks it is appropriate to sing praises in Church to a man who did those kinds of things? Why is it wrong to object to praising someone who did such despicable things? Praise to the man who slept with teenage girls, orphans he took in, and married women. Ick - I feel gross just typing that.

What kind of upside down moral universe is Mormonism situated in?

This is not some failure on your part. At worst this is losing one yard on a second down. You are playing a long game and it is far from over. If they like "Praise to the Man" then let them watch "Braveheart" when they are teenagers and show them a mythical retelling of the fight for Scottish independence. They will get to understand how some story can be true without being "true". Then this idea can be transferred to the Book of Mormon and church history. Then they can better understand that they can personally own their beliefs.

Your advantage is you can simply keep on teaching critical thinking and ethical behavior for your children. Your faithful wife has to pile on all of the LDS cultural baggage that goes beyond basic Christianity. You just want your children to be happy irrespective of faith. Meanwhile, the church wants them to be faithful whether or not they are happy. Don't lose sight of this profound strategic advantage.

Can you imagine your children as teenagers who are annoyed with some aspect of church? You get to be the sympathetic parent that let's them skip seminary or mutual when they are feeling annoyed. You can be a listening ear when they struggle with LGBT policies or try to comprehend polygamy or the priesthood ban.

I wrote alternate lyrics praising Russell's Teapot, to be sung instead of "Praise to the Man":

I could never hear that song without thinking of a very old aftershave commercial. That tune was used for YEARS to sell this product. Shadow - maybe your son can embrace this use of that great tune?

Meanwhile, I promise if anyone listens to this commercial (and some that follow the first one), you'll have a good internal laugh each time that horrible hymn is sung. Here's the YouTube link, for your listening and viewing pleasure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw2pe8mwCTw

You know, you could have set everything straight again with a proper pumpkin carving:

shadow wrote: We got home, carved pumpkins, and watched the end of a very depressing Seahawks game, but the topic never came up again.

It was a riveting game with a depressing result. Admittedly hoping for a result opposite of your preference.

Hagoth wrote:You know, you could have set everything straight again with a proper pumpkin carving:

That is the true (or one true official) pumpkin carving. Nevermind the other carvings I've hidden away from view.

Corsair wrote:This is not some failure on your part. At worst this is losing one yard on a second down. You are playing a long game and it is far from over.

I agree. The comfort that I have is that my kids know that I don't have a testimony. They think I can just get it back, but they also ask me occasionally why I don't have a testimony. It's at those times that I have to be the most careful to not get overly negative while still answering their questions. I mean, only one has reached the age of accountability, so I keep things pretty simple. As they get older, I just want to make sure the lines of communication stay open and they feel comfortable continuing to ask me questions.

What concerns me in the "long game" is maintaining my marriage with differing ideas on how to religiously train our children. I don't like that the metaphor where we each have a game plan to out maneuver the other seems apt.

Praise to the Man does have great music--fun to sing and fun to play.

Before the Policy, I considered returning to Church but only as an organist. One of my policies would have been no Praise to the Man. If someone insisted on it, I would explain my reasons (you know, it's idolatrous) and tell them to have someone else play it.

This reminds me: I had a mission companion who told me that when he was in Primary, he and his friends thought Ming Ling was some Chinese guy who hangs out among the gods...

shadow, do you know what verses were sang? My little girl is going to sing that song in the Primary Program on Sunday. I will be more more upset if they sing the second or fourth verse.

I haven't liked this song for years, and I recently discovered it's worse than I thought. Brett D. Dowdle wrote this in a BYU Religious Studies Center paper:

Pained by the tragedy at Carthage, W. W. Phelps penned a well-known tribute to Joseph Smith now entitled “Praise to the Man.” In its original language, the poem read, in part,

Praise to his mem’ry, he died as a martyr;
Honor’d and blest be his ever great name;
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Stain Illinois, while the earth lauds his fame....
Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man!
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again....

In February 1861, with the secession crisis in full sway and the nation on the brink of war, Brigham stated that he “knew the reason why this Government was in trouble.” He attributed the national problems to the fact that “they had killed Joseph Smith” and noted that the country would “have to pay for it as the Jews did in killing Jesus.”
(https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/civil-war- ... on-thought)

It refers to the Oath of Vengeance! I don't want my little girl singing that crap!

edit: fixed a type

Oh, I forgot to say something. I have seriously been thinking about talking to the Primary President about this. I want to say, "Hey, did you know that song refers to the Oath of Vengeance? What do you think of that? Should our kids be singing that?"

Doing that would really rock the boat, though. The Primary President is our neighbor and friend. But I can't sit through that song. Gah! It was sung in SM a few weeks ago and I walked out of the chapel and went outside.

Our Primary program was last Sunday as well. Nothing is more disturbing than seeing little children belting out Praise to the Man.....in made my skin crawl. And it ticked me off. Child after child stood up to bear testimony of Joseph and the BOM....AAUURGGG! Don't the brethren realize that they are setting these children up for a massive crisis down the road.

I looked back over the primary curriculum from this past year.....only a couple of weeks spent on the Savior and his teachings. If I were running the show, I would scrap teaching the "Restoration" to primary children. Instead, I would spend every single week teaching the stories, parables, and miracles of Jesus. You could even throw in the BOM stories that teach of Christ. But, for goodness sakes, stop the proliferation of the "faithful" narrative....in other words..........STOP LYING!

Shawn wrote:shadow, do you know what verses were sang? My little girl is going to sing that song in the Primary Program on Sunday. I will more more upset if they sing the second or fourth verse.

The kids sang the first first, and then the congregation joined them, standing, to sing the rest of the verses. It was terrible. I was sitting near the front in the center with our 2 year old. My wife was on the stand because she's in the primary presidency. I was really tempted to stay sitting, but I stood to avoid embarrassing my family. You can rest assured, though, that I stood there stone cold silent as the song was sung.

I usually pick and choose which songs I will sing. Before the kids went up to the stand, I actually did sing the opening hymn. I forget now which one it was, but it was benign. My 7 year old, who has a problem with discretion, said loudly to me while we were singing, "Wow Dad. You're singing. I haven't seen you sing in a long time. You don't usually sing." Long game, right?

Shawn wrote:Oh, I forgot to say something. I have seriously been thinking about talking to the Primary President about this. I want to say, "Hey, did you know that song refers to the Oath of Vengeance? What do you think of that? Should our kids be singing that?"

Current lyrics:

Long shall his blood that shed by assassins, / Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame

Original lyrics

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, / Stain Illinois, while the earth lauds his fame

If you present this to the Primary president I expect one of two reactions. The most likely is a blank "deer in the headlights" look that states that they are simply not going to deal with your concern because it takes on a system that she loves. The other possible reaction is an angry, fundamentalist throw back to 19th century Mormonism that still is ticked off about the lynching of Joseph Smith.

Ah, perhaps this is why my wife hasn't said anything about the primary program. She knows I'm not going to be happy to see my kids singing that song.

My then 9-year-old mentioned once that this is his favorite primary song. It really bothered me to hear that, but your explanation that this is probably due to the melody itself makes sense.

Corsair wrote: If you present this to the Primary president I expect one of two reactions. The most likely is a blank "deer in the headlights" look that states that they are simply not going to deal with your concern because it takes on a system that she loves. The other possible reaction is an angry, fundamentalist throw back to 19th century Mormonism that still is ticked off about the lynching of Joseph Smith.

You are right. It wouldn't make a difference

The Primary program was yesterday. The kids sang only the first and third verses of Praise to the Man. Maybe the Primary leaders were aware enough to not have them sing about Joseph's blood. Haha!