NOM

I know many of you still maintain activity in the Church for a sense of community, a sense of belonging, because it is your tribe. That's cool, I don't mean to criticize those of you who do, but I was thinking today about why I can't, and it occurred to me that the glue that holds the "LDS community" together is a shared belief in things that aren't true. Take away all the things I can't believe in anymore, and there is nothing left uniting that "community". Nothing holds it together other than things I can no longer accept. Without a shared belief in the divinity of the Church, the prophet, the priesthood, the Book of Mormon, the sealing power, all of that - what else really holds this "community" together? Take all of that away and it falls apart.

If it works for you, that's great, but I personally don't feel like I can build a connection to a community that is built on myths and fantasies. Is that unduly harsh?

In my case, the shared community is built in, since ward members are my neighbors. This only works if you live in an area with an overwhelming number of Mormons.

It has seemed to me that there is a fellowshipping deficit when it comes to non-standard members.

It depends on the ward and the relationships you have there. Certainly my belief transition has made me reconsider relationships where it's like, "Man, we didn't have anything in common before and now we really don't have anything in common." But there are also people that I like for reasons apart from the church, and I'm happy to continue those relationships. I've been to a couple ward activities since opting out of church attendance several months ago, and it has been genuinely pleasant to see a bunch of those people. If and when the sales pressure starts, I might change my tune.

I get what you mean. My reasons for dividing with the church are different, but it's difficult when the church just seems to make it's easy into every sentence. It's not intentional. It's just how it is. I've been friends with mainstream Christians and there views that differ from mine and their "praise Gods" or "can I get an amen" work their way into conversations. It's just part of it.

What has me deciding these aren't my tribe is if I'm in, I'm under someone's thumb--or several someone's. If I'm out, about a third of the ward is afraid of me, a third of the ward wants to give me brownies and a third of the ward wants to give me a colonoscopy--not for my health mind you--they just want to know what's up there so they can ride my rear end while giving me a perpetual colonoscopy.

Fundamentally I'd never turn to the LDS Church for a sense of community because I couldn't be myself in that community and still be invited. This is not to say I'd never associate with Mormons, after all my family and my wife are Mormon, or with Christians in general* (that'd be cutting myself off from a lot of people), but that common thread of friendship (or acquaintanceship) can never be the Church for me and you're not going to find me seeking out a community that by and large exists for a sharing of a common belief I just don't share and furthermore doesn't want me to acknowledge what I actually do believe except in the most cursory manner.

*Indeed, I had a nice philosophical discussion about the existence of god and reasons for believing with a Catholic friend over a pitcher of beer the other day.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:57 pm
If it works for you, that's great, but I personally don't feel like I can build a connection to a community that is built on myths and fantasies. Is that unduly harsh?

I can relate with your whole post NBI and don't feel you are being harsh at all. No one at American Express would think you harsh for using a Visa card. Somehow we worry about how we are viewed by those millions of American Express members when we use our Visa card.

I can see Mokshas point too where his ward and neighbors are the same folks and so going to events is just being "neighborly"

Where I live, my neighbors don't care what card I use.

I live in the heart of moville-Utah county. My neighborhood is pretty awesome. I have some great friends who know I resigned. They know my issues with the church, yet they treat me like anyone else. They are kind and good friends. I go to sm to support my tbm wife and then I'm out the door to enjoy my Sunday. When we go out as couples obviously church topics come up and I just listen and think, I'm so damn lucky to be out. But at the same time I respect their views and value their friendship.

They know I drink fithly beer. They don't care. Pretty non judgemental.

Like Moshka, since my entire street save a few homes are my fellow ward members, it's tough to commit social suicide and bail completely, but the main issue is with family and spouse. If I didn't live in Utah and had no family involvement, breaking the tether completely would absolutely be appealing and easy. I have one progressive thinking Mormon friend that gives true fellowship, and one good TBM friend that I share a hobby with, along with a few others that I enjoy discussing secular or professional topics with. For now that's enough to fulfill my needs. I use the dark art of being the "scary" knowledgeable pariah to ward off the cultish behavior of busy bodies and leaders. So far so good. Things can change but they have been stable for a 3-4 years now. If my circumstances change, I will adapt.

I feel sort of the same way. I just moved away from my last ward where I had my transition. It felt good to go with those people because I could continue in a rut with them. I am now in Phoenix, and my wife still wants to go to church. Trying to even think about building relationships with new church people is completely unattractive because you need to share churchy stuff in order to feel accepted in. I don't want to do that anymore. But what can you do if you don't have anything in common?

Emower wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:55 pm I feel sort of the same way. I just moved away from my last ward where I had my transition. It felt good to go with those people because I could continue in a rut with them. I am now in Phoenix, and my wife still wants to go to church. Trying to even think about building relationships with new church people is completely unattractive because you need to share churchy stuff in order to feel accepted in. I don't want to do that anymore. But what can you do if you don't have anything in common?

Find the middle road. Show up with a pink shirt, no tie, unshaven face. Let them make you their "project". No immediate callings, they feel good they helped someone, you get treats. Everyone wins.

Emower wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:55 pm I feel sort of the same way. I just moved away from my last ward where I had my transition. It felt good to go with those people because I could continue in a rut with them. I am now in Phoenix, and my wife still wants to go to church. Trying to even think about building relationships with new church people is completely unattractive because you need to share churchy stuff in order to feel accepted in. I don't want to do that anymore. But what can you do if you don't have anything in common?

I'm going to be in this same place soon. I've been in my current ward for so long that I have a lot of credibility. I've been in several presidencies. I may say some heretical things now and then, but everyone knows that's just MM's way of being herself. I'm definitely in a rut. I know how to act, what to do (the least amount to do), and I know enough people that I get along okay. I'm comfortable. Perhaps the biggest thing I am not looking forward to when moving is having to exert the effort to get to know people in church because it is so inauthentic. I am making a promise to myself to get out and meet the neighbors. It's interesting though, when I was in the midst of my faith crisis, when things were bad and I was feeling very low, I wanted nothing more than to move so I could make new and different friendships within the church. Now I'm apathetic, and the thought of introducing myself and getting to know people is a real chore.

I've come to a place where I think just about the only purpose of any church is community. I was born into the Mormon community and it's never really worked for me. Perhaps my biggest problem with it is the idea that it is the "one true church." This bothered me as a child, possibly because one of my parents is a convert.

I can see myself joining another church for community that doesn't insist on the same beliefs of all its members. While I do believe that all Mormons believe differently from each other in many, many ways, no one is really allowed to say so, and I've always disliked that there's the assumption, particularly among very conservative, orthodox TBMs (who are also the most vocal), that we all believe the same way. I just can't participate in a community that can't value my differences when it's my differences that make me valuable.

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:56 pm While I do believe that all Mormons believe differently from each other in many, many ways, no one is really allowed to say so, and I've always disliked that there's the assumption, particularly among very conservative, orthodox TBMs (who are also the most vocal), that we all believe the same way.

In my experience for those that make that assumption it's not just that all believe the same way but that all good Mormons believe the same way as them. Sure there may be a little wiggle room here and there in their minds, but if you color your belief outside of the lines as far as they're concerned you're not just a Mormon who believes things differently than them, you're a Mormon who doesn't believe as good as them. Your understanding of, or conviction to follow, the gospel just ain't on their level.

Dravin wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:55 am

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:56 pm While I do believe that all Mormons believe differently from each other in many, many ways, no one is really allowed to say so, and I've always disliked that there's the assumption, particularly among very conservative, orthodox TBMs (who are also the most vocal), that we all believe the same way.

In my experience for those that make that assumption it's not just that all believe the same way but that all good Mormons believe the same way as them. Sure there may be a little wiggle room here and there in their minds, but if you color your belief outside of the lines as far as they're concerned you're not just a Mormon who believes things differently than them, you're a Mormon who doesn't believe as good as them. Your understanding of, or conviction to follow, the gospel just ain't on their level.

You nailed this one, Dravin. It's not about difference, it's about who is better.

I honestly never felt a sense of community in my current ward of residence. Though I tried my damnedest to find friends who had other interests besides those provided by the LDS Corp, I never really made any actual friends beyond the superficial stuff provided by the Corp.

When I gave up on attending the weekly 3-hour bore-fest, all the superficial "friends" disappeared instantly. It's actually taken a few years for some of them to even be able to look me in the eye whilst perusing the neighborhood. Most of them have gotten beyond being completely afraid of the leper (me) and can at least look at me long enough to have a "hey how's it going" 2-minute conversation.

Now that I know who the other lepers are in the neighborhood, relationships/community with them has vastly improved. I can actually be myself with those who have given up on the Corporate LDS dream like I have, and those who were never part of that fake dream. Though it seems I have a smaller group of friends, my mental health is vastly improved.

I guess what I'm blabbering on about is: For more than 10 years I haven't been able to turn to LDS "friends" for community. Even when I was actually attending it didn't work. Now that I've given up on the fake LDS "community", my actual community has gotten smaller, but much better.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:09 am I honestly never felt a sense of community in my current ward of residence. Though I tried my damnedest to find friends who had other interests besides those provided by the LDS Corp, I never really made any actual friends beyond the superficial stuff provided by the Corp.

When I gave up on attending the weekly 3-hour bore-fest, all the superficial "friends" disappeared instantly. It's actually taken a few years for some of them to even be able to look me in the eye whilst perusing the neighborhood. Most of them have gotten beyond being completely afraid of the leper (me) and can at least look at me long enough to have a "hey how's it going" 2-minute conversation.

Now that I know who the other lepers are in the neighborhood, relationships/community with them has vastly improved. I can actually be myself with those who have given up on the Corporate LDS dream like I have, and those who were never part of that fake dream. Though it seems I have a smaller group of friends, my mental health is vastly improved.

I guess what I'm blabbering on about is: For more than 10 years I haven't been able to turn to LDS "friends" for community. Even when I was actually attending it didn't work. Now that I've given up on the fake LDS "community", my actual community has gotten smaller, but much better.

The quality vs quantity observation is spot on. I am much more fulfilled having a few "real" friends than an entire
Quorum full of fake superficial ones.

Enoch Witty wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:57 am

Dravin wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:55 am

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:56 pm While I do believe that all Mormons believe differently from each other in many, many ways, no one is really allowed to say so, and I've always disliked that there's the assumption, particularly among very conservative, orthodox TBMs (who are also the most vocal), that we all believe the same way.

In my experience for those that make that assumption it's not just that all believe the same way but that all good Mormons believe the same way as them. Sure there may be a little wiggle room here and there in their minds, but if you color your belief outside of the lines as far as they're concerned you're not just a Mormon who believes things differently than them, you're a Mormon who doesn't believe as good as them. Your understanding of, or conviction to follow, the gospel just ain't on their level.

You nailed this one, Dravin. It's not about difference, it's about who is better.

My TBM BIL calls slacker mormons (including his own relatives) "slow trackers" as if he is higher on the Celestial list than them. Rameumptom much?

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:57 pmIf it works for you, that's great, but I personally don't feel like I can build a connection to a community that is built on myths and fantasies. Is that unduly harsh?

I've wondered at times what kind of connection I would establish with a local ward were I to move somewhere else. Where I live now, I have what I consider some real friends from church who at this point are not only friends because of the LDS connection. Introverted as I am, I don't go out of my way to do social things, but when I do it is with LDS friends as often as not. I still find it hard to imagine going entirely inactive or no longer thinking of myself as part of the Mormon community, regardless of my beliefs. But who knows?

While I don't know that the LDS structure as a whole would hold together if the foundational myths were removed, I still appreciate my part in it. I even like some of the arbitrary rules. I feel as if I take things on my own terms these days, even though as far as I know people assume that I am as orthodox as ever.

It's a different question whether I'd build a new connection to a community based on different myths that I have never taken any stock in. That would be very strange and I don't know that I could do it.

I appreciate your perspective on things, Not Buying It. I don't think your statement is harsh at all, and I personally wouldn't have minded it if you had gone one step further and argued why it might be considered morally wrong to associate with a group that has essential principles that you don't share. (Of course, since this is NOM, it would be a very tactful argument. And that's one reason I like this place.)

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:57 pm I personally don't feel like I can build a connection to a community that is built on myths and fantasies.

Not only do I agree with this but I'll take it a step further. The problem with the LDS community is they see their non-member neighbors and inactives as broken and lost and it is each TBM's sacred obligation, in order to work out their own salvation, to go to the rescue and fix all those broken and lost souls. It is this ulterior motive that clouds a true community. Think back to all the service projects or things you might have done for a neighbor or reaching out to serve others. When in the church as a TBM, you did those things out of the goodness in your heart right? Perhaps, but I would argue there is also this constant pressure to do so.

Now you could argue that the Mormon drive to serve others, because it's a commandant, is still good for the community. Rake up the leaves at old brother NOM's house and then what? You've got your foot in the door to invite him back to church? When I think back to my own experiences as a TBM, as compared to how it is now that I don't believe it anymore, I find that I can now perform acts of kindness and there is no supernatural beings looking over my shoulder. There's now no book in another world where it is being recorded, no PEC meeting where the progress is being discussed, no assignments, no planning or sharing of ideas as to how we'll get into the door. Without those things hanging over my heart, mind and spirit it's liberating to do nice things just because; just because it feels good and it's the right thing to do. There does not need to be any other reason, it just makes the world a better place. It's altruism. Take away the fear, strip away the guilt, melt away the bias of Mormonism that it's some means to work out some pretend salvation and it's just better. I have many examples of this over the past year and a half since I've been out.

I think about my gay neighbors a couple houses down and how my perception from several years ago would have changed how I view them. I just talk to them now because they are people, good people that are my neighbors, that's all, nothing else. Perhaps a few years ago I'd still talk to them but it would be with some bias and perhaps some guilt that because I was LDS I'd feel guilty for the way my church views them and would feel obligated to talk to them to make up for it somehow, to show I was not one of "those Mormons". Again, it's so liberating to not have anything hanging over my head that clouds my view. This has really helped me as well with my own gay daughter; what a wonderful time we had together with her partner when we got together last summer on two different occasions, both their visit her and my visit out of state to where they live. I've never seen her so happy and it brings me so much joy where as before it was painful because of the dissonance the church caused.

Is that too harsh?