NOM

Do any other churches assign members to congregations the way that the LDS church assigns you to a Ward based on your geographic location? I find it obnoxious and controlling that I can't just attend any Ward I want to, that there is this expectation that since I happen to live in a specified geographic area they get to tell me where I worship and who I worship with. How many times have you seen family members and lifelong friends separated by a change in Ward boundaries? There's no reason it has to be that way, it is only for the administrative convenience of Church leaders. And because they get a kick out of telling you what to do.

Does any other major religion do that?

It's ridiculous. Finding out that my grandparents had to go several blocks for church rather than just walk literally across the street to the chapel within 100 yards blew my freaking mind.

The institutional LDS church takes ward boundaries very seriously. No one will explicitly "force" you to attend the correct ward. Certainly people are welcome to visit other wards when travelling or if temporary circumstances require such. But it will literally affect whether or not you can get a temple recommend or participate in the ordinances of salvation for yourself or for family members. If you are not in your correct, assigned ward you cannot get your temple recommend signed. You cannot get baptized or ordained to the priesthood. You will not get a ward calling or home teachers outside of your "home" ward.

Minor threadjack

Yesterday we were at a heathen social gathering involved in flagrant violations of proper sabbath day activities. We were at the Crossfit gym. We are involved in a weekly competition and this event happened to be on Sunday. A couple things really caught my attention.

On the drive to the gym, we passed several churches. Many included the word "community" in their name or catchphrase. At the gym, someone was wearing a t-shirt that said "I 'heart' My Church".

People were drinking beer while cheering on the competitors. Some athletes even huddled, interweaving arms and shoulders in prayer before their heat.

Everyone was beyond kind, supportive and cheering for one another.

It dawned on me that church isn't about anything else but community. Finding people that support you with like-minded attributes. Helping one another.

The LDS church has lost this. The LDS community doesn't hold a candle to its former glory of community, it's just riding the diminishing wave it once had.

It has tried and failed to let its members establish community with such things as YSA wards, Polynesian Wards, assigned geographic wards, etc. It has failed miserably.

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:05 am It has tried and failed to let its members establish community with such things as YSA wards, Polynesian Wards, assigned geographic wards, etc. It has failed miserably.

My favorite is when singles get to be 30 and can't go to the singles ward anymore. Those that most need whatever benefit the singles ward offers, are kicked out!! Brilliant. I never can get enough of that incredible, insightful, even helpful, Mormon inspiration!!

I once told a nevermo friend about the geographic ward boundary requirements. He looked at me as if I was absolutely nuts. Could not believe a church would do that to it's members! I know the church would defend the policy by saying if people could go wherever it would be "chaos" of sorts, but just like the "unworthy family and friends" and temple weddings, the church could easily figure out a fix if they wanted to (like a civil wedding ceremony separate from a sacred temple sealing as is already done in some countries!!). But they don't want to. They want you to have to attend church where they want because that is easier for them, and they want you to have to be Mormon and pay your entrance fees to attend your loved ones wedding.

It's all about control.

I think Catholics very loosely have a geographic model of attendance, but no one really cares. Perhaps more fundamentalist religions do. JW or Seventh Day Adventist, I'm not sure. Do orthodox or Hasidic jews have to attend a specific synagogue according to location? I never really thought about it.

There are half a dozen single women in my ward who live outside the boundaries and have special permission from the Stake to attend and participate (callings definitely,TR I'm not sure). I've been told the ward will not accept their tithing. Depending upon one's POV, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I assume that these women are permitted to attend our ward because they are single, lived in our ward for a long time, their children have close associations within the ward, and at least two returned to activity while attending the ward, so their close social ties and single status are seen as reasons by the leadership to provide exceptions.

Vlad the Emailer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:03 am My favorite is when singles get to be 30 and can't go to the singles ward anymore. Those that most need whatever benefit the singles ward offers, are kicked out!! Brilliant. I never can get enough of that incredible, insightful, even helpful, Mormon inspiration!!

I have conflicting thoughts on this. I get what's being said - older singles in the church could definitely benefit from better community and a singles ward could provide that. On the other hand, I attended a YSA where an older man was permitted to attend, and as a twenty year old female who was then pursued by a thirty-five year old male, I think the Mormon church has some doctrinal/historical/cultural reasons to keep the singles within a particular age bracket.

Vlad the Emailer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:03 am I once told a nevermo friend about the geographic ward boundary requirements. He looked at me as if I was absolutely nuts.

Yes. I was seeing a therapist about the time my faith transition was the worst. Her suggestion? Find another ward. She obviously did not understand mormonism so I had to explain to her how I couldn't just attend another ward. As I was explaining it to her I realized how incredibly stupid the whole thing sounded.

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:05 am It dawned on me that church isn't about anything else but community. Finding people that support you with like-minded attributes. Helping one another.

This is one of the biggest turn arounds I have had regarding church. I've never been particularly social, and as a TBM I saw the church as a necessary and unpleasant duty I had to fulfill because of the ordinances. I hated the social part of it the most. I'm still not particularly keen on the social aspect, but community is almost the only thing about the church I see as beneficial.

But members can attend whatever ward they want to. They just can't pay tithing or get their recommend or having callings in whatever ward they want to (which some would find a perk).

To answer your question, I think the Catholics do.

I may not be a fan of Trump's educational plan, but when I heard it, I thought denying churches tax exempt status and instituting church (ward) choice choice might be a good idea.

tryingtogetitright wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:33 pm But members can attend whatever ward they want to. They just can't pay tithing or get their recommend or having callings in whatever ward they want to (which some would find a perk).

Thanks for the classically apologetic response. Members CAN attend wherever they want, but....but...but....and the buts bring us right back around to where we started, members CAN'T just attend whatever ward they want.

The LDS church has lost this. The LDS community doesn't hold a candle to its former glory of community, it's just riding the diminishing wave it once had.

One thing I have seen in the Community of Christ/RLDS tradition is a tight knit community. They built that community around camps, which was a gathering spot for people every single year, decade after decade. There are folks that are in their 80's and remember their fellow campers as kids. Often, I hear stories about another member's antics that happened 50-60 years ago, how folks dated each other, ect.. Sometimes they know people clear across the country, not just passing familiarity, but actually know them and can strike up a conversation quickly. It is quite remarkable. Even when people broke off/quit participating in the church, that history continues. I have heard of people knowing who I am, asking folks about me and I am not even a member.

I have never seen this in the LDS church the same way. We don't even know our Brothers and Sisters in other Wards, let alone in other states. Everyone is pretty much in their own Kingdom, their own bubble.. I grew up in the same Ward my whole life, went through Primary, YM, Boy Scouts, High Adventure.. That community never materialized. Sure I have friends on Facebook, but not all of them and some were pretty crappy toward me anyway.

Community is absolutely something that the LDS church should work on. It might be different in Utah and highly considerated areas, but in the Midwest, the community sucks.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:41 am The institutional LDS church takes ward boundaries very seriously. No one will explicitly "force" you to attend the correct ward. Certainly people are welcome to visit other wards when travelling or if temporary circumstances require such. But it will literally affect whether or not you can get a temple recommend or participate in the ordinances of salvation for yourself or for family members. If you are not in your correct, assigned ward you cannot get your temple recommend signed. You cannot get baptized or ordained to the priesthood. You will not get a ward calling or home teachers outside of your "home" ward.

Nothing on your list interests me one bit.

Its_Complicated wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:15 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:41 am The institutional LDS church takes ward boundaries very seriously. No one will explicitly "force" you to attend the correct ward. Certainly people are welcome to visit other wards when travelling or if temporary circumstances require such. But it will literally affect whether or not you can get a temple recommend or participate in the ordinances of salvation for yourself or for family members. If you are not in your correct, assigned ward you cannot get your temple recommend signed. You cannot get baptized or ordained to the priesthood. You will not get a ward calling or home teachers outside of your "home" ward.

Nothing on your list interests me one bit.

And that is why the institutional church is disappointed in you and fears for your eternal soul as well as long tithing revenue. I need to keep my own temple recommend for the foreseeable future so you will find me at my assigned ward building and time on Sunday.

Luckily, the spiritual discernment of all levels of leadership is pretty anemic. Their spiritual hostage taking often feels like they are holding a sock puppet hostage since I have no fear of any divine authority they pretend to have over my soul. As long as it somehow appears that you are involved at church they usually won't bother you. However, I am also comfortable in my career as a duplicitous liar. I have all respect for people who have made a break with church and follow the dictates of their own conscience.

The youth suffer as well by not being able to see friends at church, even though they may attend the same school and participate on the same teams and organizations.

What really upsets me though is the church will not hesitate to ask you to attend another small ward or branch if leadership is lacking. I know several people who travel great distances because the unit needs leadership coverage.

If it is your preference or would benefit you or your family, sorry the Lord will not allow it. However, if we need you to drive 40 miles each way 3 days a week to help us keep a unit functioning in an area that should have been closed years ago, well that is His will.

If they only knew how many are in the pews each week that are one bad event/experience from being gone the Q15 would would be in complete panic.

Nowyoutellme wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:01 pm If they only knew how many are in the pews each week that are one bad event/experience from being gone the Q15 would would be in complete panic.

I have left twice, going to other Wards is the only way I can function anymore. I can't go to the Ward I grew up in, too much shame, no spirit there at all for me. It is selfish for them to force the issue, Jesus would tell me to go wherever I can go. I know the locals have a huge burden to run a Ward, I have seen it first hand, but they have their marching orders. I pray for them, I think about them and I ask for them to receive inspired council to help people like myself. It doesn't have to be such an authoritarian system, in Joseph Smith's time, I am not sure if that was the case. I simply think they don't realize the damage and suffering they cause.

So yes, it is a negative to automatically make people go where they are geographically located. People are complicated and people can't always function in a one size, fits all approach. It is up to the individual to look out for his/her self. I have learned that God inspires people to find answers to their problems. Leadership should only be a counselor and do no harm.

I asked a Catholic co-worker who explained that the Catholic church is the same as the Episcopal church. You are absolutely not assigned to a parish based upon your geographical location, but you are assigned to a diocese. However, since the diocese is not a congregation but a collection of congregations, you aren't told where to worship. If you live on a border of a diocese and worship over the border, nobody cares.

Most people do attend a church based upon relative geographical location, but usually in a snapshot. Much of our older population originally joined our parish because they (a) liked the congregation (or were already Episcopalian), and (b) it was close to home. Once they became established in the congregation through donations, time, and work, they may move further away and then they go to the congregation because they love it, not because it is close anymore. We find that most of our younger parishioners are from the neighborhood while the older parishioners tend to be from further and further away.

When people are in the same congregation for years and decades with each other friendship run deep and congregations get their own cultures. The people are more invested in their church buildings, you get a higher level of pride and ownership in the congregation and the property. It is beneficial to the congregants, because if they fit in or do not fit in, they can attend elsewhere if they so please. There are many benefits to this way of doing things, primarily that you aren't being told where, when, and with whom to worship. There are some downsides as well, church events tend to get more spread out, people are traveling further to attend church (by their choice, but it does make events harder to plan), you get a little too much ownership in the church ("this has been my pew for 30 years, darn it"), it is tougher for those invested through the decades to hand leadership and control over to a younger generation, and it makes it harder to help each other when you are miles away rather than blocks away.

The LDS model does have its benefits, many of them are a reduction of the problems. I've noticed in many churches that the people in their 70s and 80s culturally run the churches, and in the LDS church it is usually the 50-somethings. Oftentimes, this is direct result of the ward boundaries. The empty nesters sell their family-homes and move to a smaller home outside of the boundaries. Then they are in a new ward and don't have the cultural influence they did. This lends to the most established people, those who are almost empty nesters with teenagers and kids on missions. This has been my experience, at least, in the LDS model. The cultural powerhouses are the middle-aged, not the aged. This helps in generational torch-passing.

You get much, much, much less pew ownership in the LDS church. That is a pet peeve of mine in all churches, and while it does happen in the LDS church, it sure happens a lot less there.

The LDS model also helps in caring for fellow congregation members. This is actually a frustration of mine in the Episcopal church. I deliver flowers once a month to the sick in our parish. That usually means I'm putting 40 - 50 miles on my care driving all over the place. I've been called on a few times in an emergency, and it isn't going over a few blocks, it is going a distance to help someone. The LDS model puts you all much closer, in some cases a few blocks or a few miles (assuming you are in the American west). That's actually really nice. The people you BBQ with on the block are also in your congregation, and its nice to have that in your neighborhood.

There are benefits, but personally, it isn't beneficial enough for me to state, "please treat me like a child and assign me to a ward even if I cannot get along with anyone there and I hate going there".

As I related in another thread many wards ate being closed down in Holland.
Talked it over with an elderly couple who dedicated all their lives to Church.
And the simply said: if we had lived in our old house 10 Miles away we would have been on the inactive list. They are octagenarians without a car living 2 blocks from the stakecenter

Parents of a ladyfriend of mine served in the stakepresidency and in the templepresidency.
Their Ward is being closed now and the only way they now can get to their new assigned Church is bypassing 2 other wards by train and go back by bus to the geographically close Ward. Without a car it's just unworkable

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:41 am The institutional LDS church takes ward boundaries very seriously. No one will explicitly "force" you to attend the correct ward. Certainly people are welcome to visit other wards when travelling or if temporary circumstances require such. But it will literally affect whether or not you can get a temple recommend or participate in the ordinances of salvation for yourself or for family members. If you are not in your correct, assigned ward you cannot get your temple recommend signed. You cannot get baptized or ordained to the priesthood. You will not get a ward calling or home teachers outside of your "home" ward.

I went to a ward I thought we were part of. The bp thought so, too. But the newly assigned ht wasted no time setting the bishop straight when he saw that we lived on the wrong side of the street. The bp wanted to see us (my daughter and I) the very next Sunday, after our new ht had given us a ride home from church. In the interview, we discovered the bp had already sent our records to the new place. Ht could hardly wait to get shed of us, y'know. We had no car. It took about 20-25 minutes to walk there. It took 35 or so minutes to walk to the new place. After several months, that ward split, and the walk would have been about 55 minutes one way. I got a ride once. It was obvious no one wanted to give me a ride, and I was not interested in asking. So, I started going to the first building again (different ward, iirc).

My ward bpric member came to my place for a recommend interview. I told him that I was going to this other ward because that was part of me "doing all I can do" to help myself get to church since I had no car. He said going to church was more important than which ward I went to. Also, in regards to tithing, I had no income of my own, and my reply to that question was that if I had it, I would give it. He had no problem with that answer, either. And those answers worked for the stake counselor when I walked up to the stake center for the rest of the recommend (the building that was about 35 min away). I must say that I have met some incredibly nice leaders on the local levels. Still, there was a fear in regards to bucking the system and going to the ward of your choice.

The LDS church functions as a collective, not as a community. It's like an ant colony or beehive meaning that the members are seen as drones who exist only to serve the needs of the organization. The church does not see itself as a support system to help individuals find the best of who they can be. It goes right along with the concept of giving everything that you have to the church which includes any type of individual expression. So your individual needs, like worshiping with people you might feel close to, are expected to be sacrificed in the name of administrative convenience.

I live in the Midwest and at one point when I was growing up we moved a few miles over the county line so we could drive 20 miles instead of 40 miles one way to church. And who was it complaining about having to go a few blocks instead of right across the street? PULLEEEZ!