Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:42 pm
NOM
A place to love and accept the people who think about and live Mormonism on their own terms.
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NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Page 5 of 6
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:44 pm
He cannot be serious about liking JS after reading his papers. Gross
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:45 pm
internally consistent...snort...lol..oh wait...sorry, you were serious. Please, continue.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:48 pm
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:50 pm
But I doubt Quinten would ever admit he "made a huge mistake."
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:51 pm
time for a Rusty quote...wechavent had one in at least 5 minutes. I was going through withdrawal.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:59 pm
Annndddd were done for the day.
I'll be back at 6 for Ladies Night!!!
I'll be back at 6 for Ladies Night!!!
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:40 pm
Wah, ha ha ha, I didn’t hear a word of that talk. DH and I spent the day out on an ATV in the desert. Beautiful, 84 degrees, west of Mesquite Nevada. We are on our way home still in the truck and I decided to see how conference went. We are missing tomorrow morning too, actually I am not missing it a bit.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:59 pm
Alright, home now and I looked up a summary. It strikes me that this talk is the first talk on the subject of abuse that doesn’t do more harm. So, that is good.
But, it is probably a good thing I didn’t hear the talk live. It just misses what the victims need to hear. I frankly did not even begin to believe “you are a child of God and he loves you”. Nope, if he loved me he would help. I needed concrete help, not “Jesus talk”.
So, all the talk about the atonement will heal you, you are already rescued, nope, not really going to help the person suffering from abuse. Who gives a #$&$## about Jesus when you are living in hell right now? What they need is immediate help. Or even permission to get help. The church still has an atmosphere of, “if you need help, you are weak. You are not self sufficient. You should be helping others, not needing help yourself.” So, give them permission in the church culture to get help. And make it so the “help” doesn’t do more harm than good. But once again, problem in the larger culture, that abused children who are never “helped,” do better as adults. Yup, the system does more harm than good 90% of the time. But that is all stuff like victims are not believed, the abused child is pulled away from their family instead of the abuser being separated. The children need to know that getting help won’t blow their family up, but the trouble is that it does. Hmmm, even the women in battering situations need to know how to stop the abuse without blowing their family up. They don’t really want to end up divorced and raising kids by themselves, or killed for trying to leave. But those issues are problems for the larger society to fix.
But there are things the church could do…..but won’t. Right now they primarily protect the church and those men who are valuable to the church. But if they changed their focus to actually caring about women and children and even men who are vulnerable to abuse (most men have the resources they can leave the abuser) but asking the church to actually care about people is asking for too much and I know it.
But let’s dream, shall we? How about providing a number abuse victims can call to talk to a counselor. This would have actually helped me, if I could have talked to someone about what to do. Someone to tell me that I was not the one responsible to keep my family together, and so what if my father went to prison. If they could have honestly promised me that the church would make sure my family didn’t go hungry without my father supporting us, but that isn’t something they can promise even now. Oh, yeah, we were pretending the church gave a damn about women and children and others who are vulnerable.
And how about providing counseling for free to all victims, and making abusers pay into a fund to cover all victims. Make that part of their repentance, you know, restitution. I spent several thousand at LDS family services because the church wanted to reinstate my father as my father. Yuck. They need to change that idea too. I really only healed from the abuse when he was out of my life forever. I would have much rather they tried to heal the relationship with my mother and told me it was fine if I wanted my abuser out of my life. But, no, they can’t accept that outcome, that doesn’t honor rapists as head of the home. So, the church has to change attitudes about patriarchy. It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs unless LDS F S does it and they charge big bucks.
So, the church needs to do more than recognize the innocence of victims. It needs to really care about them enough to do more than talk. They need real help now from people who are actually on earth, not some promise of Jesus, who isn’t even here where he can help.
And that is how triggering just the summary was.
But this is an improvement over doing more harm, at least there was nothing harmful in the summary.
But, it is probably a good thing I didn’t hear the talk live. It just misses what the victims need to hear. I frankly did not even begin to believe “you are a child of God and he loves you”. Nope, if he loved me he would help. I needed concrete help, not “Jesus talk”.
So, all the talk about the atonement will heal you, you are already rescued, nope, not really going to help the person suffering from abuse. Who gives a #$&$## about Jesus when you are living in hell right now? What they need is immediate help. Or even permission to get help. The church still has an atmosphere of, “if you need help, you are weak. You are not self sufficient. You should be helping others, not needing help yourself.” So, give them permission in the church culture to get help. And make it so the “help” doesn’t do more harm than good. But once again, problem in the larger culture, that abused children who are never “helped,” do better as adults. Yup, the system does more harm than good 90% of the time. But that is all stuff like victims are not believed, the abused child is pulled away from their family instead of the abuser being separated. The children need to know that getting help won’t blow their family up, but the trouble is that it does. Hmmm, even the women in battering situations need to know how to stop the abuse without blowing their family up. They don’t really want to end up divorced and raising kids by themselves, or killed for trying to leave. But those issues are problems for the larger society to fix.
But there are things the church could do…..but won’t. Right now they primarily protect the church and those men who are valuable to the church. But if they changed their focus to actually caring about women and children and even men who are vulnerable to abuse (most men have the resources they can leave the abuser) but asking the church to actually care about people is asking for too much and I know it.
But let’s dream, shall we? How about providing a number abuse victims can call to talk to a counselor. This would have actually helped me, if I could have talked to someone about what to do. Someone to tell me that I was not the one responsible to keep my family together, and so what if my father went to prison. If they could have honestly promised me that the church would make sure my family didn’t go hungry without my father supporting us, but that isn’t something they can promise even now. Oh, yeah, we were pretending the church gave a damn about women and children and others who are vulnerable.
And how about providing counseling for free to all victims, and making abusers pay into a fund to cover all victims. Make that part of their repentance, you know, restitution. I spent several thousand at LDS family services because the church wanted to reinstate my father as my father. Yuck. They need to change that idea too. I really only healed from the abuse when he was out of my life forever. I would have much rather they tried to heal the relationship with my mother and told me it was fine if I wanted my abuser out of my life. But, no, they can’t accept that outcome, that doesn’t honor rapists as head of the home. So, the church has to change attitudes about patriarchy. It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs unless LDS F S does it and they charge big bucks.
So, the church needs to do more than recognize the innocence of victims. It needs to really care about them enough to do more than talk. They need real help now from people who are actually on earth, not some promise of Jesus, who isn’t even here where he can help.
And that is how triggering just the summary was.
But this is an improvement over doing more harm, at least there was nothing harmful in the summary.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 6:35 pm
Thank you Alas!!! You are the best!!!alas wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:59 pm Alright, home now and I looked up a summary. It strikes me that this talk is the first talk on the subject of abuse that doesn’t do more harm. So, that is good.
But, it is probably a good thing I didn’t hear the talk live. It just misses what the victims need to hear. I frankly did not even begin to believe “you are a child of God and he loves you”. Nope, if he loved me he would help. I needed concrete help, not “Jesus talk”.
So, all the talk about the atonement will heal you, you are already rescued, nope, not really going to help the person suffering from abuse. Who gives a #$&$## about Jesus when you are living in hell right now? What they need is immediate help. Or even permission to get help. The church still has an atmosphere of, “if you need help, you are weak. You are not self sufficient. You should be helping others, not needing help yourself.” So, give them permission in the church culture to get help. And make it so the “help” doesn’t do more harm than good. But once again, problem in the larger culture, that abused children who are never “helped,” do better as adults. Yup, the system does more harm than good 90% of the time. But that is all stuff like victims are not believed, the abused child is pulled away from their family instead of the abuser being separated. The children need to know that getting help won’t blow their family up, but the trouble is that it does. Hmmm, even the women in battering situations need to know how to stop the abuse without blowing their family up. They don’t really want to end up divorced and raising kids by themselves, or killed for trying to leave. But those issues are problems for the larger society to fix.
But there are things the church could do…..but won’t. Right now they primarily protect the church and those men who are valuable to the church. But if they changed their focus to actually caring about women and children and even men who are vulnerable to abuse (most men have the resources they can leave the abuser) but asking the church to actually care about people is asking for too much and I know it.
But let’s dream, shall we? How about providing a number abuse victims can call to talk to a counselor. This would have actually helped me, if I could have talked to someone about what to do. Someone to tell me that I was not the one responsible to keep my family together, and so what if my father went to prison. If they could have honestly promised me that the church would make sure my family didn’t go hungry without my father supporting us, but that isn’t something they can promise even now. Oh, yeah, we were pretending the church gave a damn about women and children and others who are vulnerable.
And how about providing counseling for free to all victims, and making abusers pay into a fund to cover all victims. Make that part of their repentance, you know, restitution. I spent several thousand at LDS family services because the church wanted to reinstate my father as my father. Yuck. They need to change that idea too. I really only healed from the abuse when he was out of my life forever. I would have much rather they tried to heal the relationship with my mother and told me it was fine if I wanted my abuser out of my life. But, no, they can’t accept that outcome, that doesn’t honor rapists as head of the home. So, the church has to change attitudes about patriarchy. It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs unless LDS F S does it and they charge big bucks.
So, the church needs to do more than recognize the innocence of victims. It needs to really care about them enough to do more than talk. They need real help now from people who are actually on earth, not some promise of Jesus, who isn’t even here where he can help.
And that is how triggering just the summary was.
But this is an improvement over doing more harm, at least there was nothing harmful in the summary.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:17 pm
"It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs"
That is what I remember - support, hugs, club for the enabled abusers. Cold shoulder, avoid, do not talk to thd victims.
I am not watching any of it... I know abused kids who are watching it. They watched everyone sustain their dad, they watched everyone praise their mom and dad, they listened to everyone bear testimony about how they knew their dad was called of God, how lucky they were for their eternal family, together forever.... they were taught to sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home... give daddy a kiss kiss kids.
That is what I remember - support, hugs, club for the enabled abusers. Cold shoulder, avoid, do not talk to thd victims.
I am not watching any of it... I know abused kids who are watching it. They watched everyone sustain their dad, they watched everyone praise their mom and dad, they listened to everyone bear testimony about how they knew their dad was called of God, how lucky they were for their eternal family, together forever.... they were taught to sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home... give daddy a kiss kiss kids.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:28 am
Perhaps no desire to either be the bearer of bad news or set truth-telling precedence.Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:22 pm They haven't done membership stats for a few years now,...
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:54 am
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:59 am
You can find the state (such as they are or they want you to think) are found here:moksha wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:28 amPerhaps no desire to either be the bearer of bad news or set truth-telling precedence.Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:22 pm They haven't done membership stats for a few years now,...
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... conference
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:33 am
While this is hard on Mormon kids, it is no different from other religions. I had two clients who had ministers from other religions who had that exact experience, so this is a case that the church doesn’t cause, just fails to listen to the kids when they try to tell. But my two other clients also went to police and were not believed, because reverend John would never abuse his kids.Angel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:17 pm "It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs"
That is what I remember - support, hugs, club for the enabled abusers. Cold shoulder, avoid, do not talk to thd victims.
I am not watching any of it... I know abused kids who are watching it. They watched everyone sustain their dad, they watched everyone praise their mom and dad, they listened to everyone bear testimony about how they knew their dad was called of God, how lucky they were for their eternal family, together forever.... they were taught to sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home... give daddy a kiss kiss kids.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:37 am
And in other thoughts, I actually listened to the talk, and his voice portrayed sincerity that was missing in the other talks on this subject. So, this is the best talk since that Asian woman whose name I am having a senior moment about. Chieko O-something. Best even by a male church leader, which says how bad others have been.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:47 pm
Other faiths do not teach leaders are "called by God". Do not preach the same level of authority, ... "Do you sustain your leadership? Is this part of covenants within other church groups?alas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:33 amWhile this is hard on Mormon kids, it is no different from other religions. I had two clients who had ministers from other religions who had that exact experience, so this is a case that the church doesn’t cause, just fails to listen to the kids when they try to tell. But my two other clients also went to police and were not believed, because reverend John would never abuse his kids.Angel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:17 pm "It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs"
That is what I remember - support, hugs, club for the enabled abusers. Cold shoulder, avoid, do not talk to thd victims.
I am not watching any of it... I know abused kids who are watching it. They watched everyone sustain their dad, they watched everyone praise their mom and dad, they listened to everyone bear testimony about how they knew their dad was called of God, how lucky they were for their eternal family, together forever.... they were taught to sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home... give daddy a kiss kiss kids.
One of these kids was at my home this weekend... they left me a little rock they had painted a rainbow on. Ugh.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:40 pm
Yes, they do believe their ministers are “called of God” only difference is with Mormon Bishops, the Stake president is the one God tells, and with many other Christian religions, the “calling” comes directly from God to the person, who then “knows” his life calling is to be a minister. The “calling” comes as inspiration straight from God.Angel wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 4:47 pmOther faiths do not teach leaders are "called by God". Do not preach the same level of authority, ... "Do you sustain your leadership? Is this part of covenants within other church groups?alas wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:33 amWhile this is hard on Mormon kids, it is no different from other religions. I had two clients who had ministers from other religions who had that exact experience, so this is a case that the church doesn’t cause, just fails to listen to the kids when they try to tell. But my two other clients also went to police and were not believed, because reverend John would never abuse his kids.Angel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:17 pm "It needs to see healing from abuse as just as important as men avoiding porn and drugs or alcohol. They provide free support groups for those. But even though 1 in 4 women are abused by spouse, 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused and 1in 7 boys is sexually abused, there are no church sponsored programs"
That is what I remember - support, hugs, club for the enabled abusers. Cold shoulder, avoid, do not talk to thd victims.
I am not watching any of it... I know abused kids who are watching it. They watched everyone sustain their dad, they watched everyone praise their mom and dad, they listened to everyone bear testimony about how they knew their dad was called of God, how lucky they were for their eternal family, together forever.... they were taught to sing "I'm so glad when daddy comes home... give daddy a kiss kiss kids.
One of these kids was at my home this weekend... they left me a little rock they had painted a rainbow on. Ugh.
But the probables is bigger than “called of God”. The problem is the minister/bishop is acting with God’s approval. Religions put their “priesthood” between the child and God. And that priesthood is acting in the name of God. All Christian religions.
And the biggest difference for my baptist and evangelical clients compared to a Mormon one were that their fathers preached hell fire and damnation, along with “thou shalt not commit adultery” and how young girls need to be pure. So, there was a violence that went with “hell fire and damnation” And baptist ministers can be much more worshipped by their congregation than any Mormon bishop I have ever seen.
But really, when the damage is unmeasurable, you cannot compare which is worse “daddy was bishop and having sex with me” and “daddy was a baptist preacher and was having sex with me” is that they were both really damaged, and comparing the extent of the damage is like comparing infinity to infinity, and which infinity is bigger.
I was not minimizing how screwed up that situation makes the Mormon kids, because any sexual abuse by a person’s father is BAD. The studies show that when the abuser is the biological father, that causes the most psychological damage. In addition to the betrayal of their love for their father is that God has also betrayed them.
The problem is not anything the religion specifically teaches, the problem is putting both fathers, and bishops/ministers between the child and God. Then the minister/bishop/father is acting for God, acting on behalf of God, with God’s full approval. Ministers of any and every Christian faith act on behalf of God. Fathers do to, because all religions teach “honor thy Father” as if fathers can do no wrong. Nobody ever asks the child if their father is honor-able.
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:19 am
The number that would really be interesting is the average attending membership per year. Some have suggested this would be around 4 million.lostinmiddlemormonism wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:59 am
You can find the state (such as they are or they want you to think) are found here:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... conference
Re: NOMference Sat afternoon SP 2022!!!
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:35 am
Generation after generation - genetics? People rationalize their childhood, justify it for themselves, and watch it repeat with their own partner and kids. When polygamy and child brides are part of church history there is further rationalization and continuation of it. What can you do? It's horror all around for everyone. 3 in my family in jail - 3 different religious beliefs - the Mormons involved the most kids, and the most damage within my experience.alas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:40 pm
The problem is not anything the religion specifically teaches, the problem is putting both fathers, and bishops/ministers between the child and God. Then the minister/bishop/father is acting for God, acting on behalf of God, with God’s full approval. Ministers of any and every Christian faith act on behalf of God. Fathers do to, because all religions teach “honor thy Father” as if fathers can do no wrong. Nobody ever asks the child if their father is honor-able.