NOM

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:05 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 3:00 pm

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 2:35 pm What’s the point if it still isn’t what it claims to be? No amount of change can compensate for the evidence that Joseph Smith made it all up!

It was never true. It will never be true.

Doesn't matter if the foundational claims are bogus. The Church still exists, is a money-making entity, and has the potential for good. It is up to us as individuals to decide what constitutes enabling behavior. I would hate for someone like Alas to be burnt by the fire while a better church is being forged.

I think the Church will require good-hearted members with a sense of manageable distance to support, from the bottom up, the eventual softening the hearts of those at the top. It seems like an unreachable goal, but perhaps the Don Quixotes among us could solve this dilemma. If not then it will slowly dwindle.

I respectfully disagree. The potential for good that the Church has rests on a boondoggle. It does matter that the foundational claims are bogus, because those foundational claims are the only thing that keeps most members doing anything in the Church, from whence the potential for good derives. Take away the foundational claims and you take away most members’ motivation to do many of the good things the Church tells them to do. For example, the Church tells them to fulfill a calling - how many members would keep doing that if they all knew that calling doesn’t really come from God? The Church tells them to serve others - they would find their opportunities to serve elsewhere if they knew the Church isn’t what it claims to be.

The only reason the Church has power to do good is because it has deceived its members into thinking it is the source of that good. Take that deception away, and the Church loses that power. Not that the members won’t still want to love and serve others - but they will choose to do it outside of the Church that demanded so much of them yet misled them.

The Church needs the deception to get members to do what it wants. Take the deception away and no one will listen to it anymore, and its potential for good evaporates completely.

I am one who posts little, I have been around for years, under another name on the old NOM. NOM has changed. My beliefs have changed, but I did feel somewhat uncomfortable navigating both sides while trying to find my way. I just want to know the truth, then things can fall where they may. Reddit is frequented by many people in acute pain and can reflect a negative view. I have always appreciated the more considered discussions that have occurred here. I tend to be a little more generous with the leaders and the church. The truth is that the church, through the good members, does a lot of good. The truth is that the church also causes a lot of pain and can be a negative influence for many people. I think the church can, and will make slow, incremental changes more often in a positive direction than a negative. Folks, this is going to take a long time.

I also miss posts from the runningmom, Jenny, happyjackwagon and others. I am pleased to still see many of the old guard here as well.

I think the church has moved past the point of outright deception when the living leaders believe it. Just look at President Nelson’s face as he stood next to the statues of the original twelve during his visit to Rome. He clearly believes that he is one of them.

The church may have some imaginary foundations, but it is not going away any time soon.

Common beliefs hold many entities in our lives together. Removing deception or imaginary beliefs will make any social construct evaporate. The power of the church comes from the common beliefs of the members. The beliefs themselves may be imaginary, but the power is very real. The power of the United States comes from the belief of the people in USA. You could argue that the belief in money, corporations or the United States of America is imaginary or based upon deception. (Book by D. Harari) The imaginary beliefs whose root is deception are still very real and can wield real power.

I agree that the church can and likely will be guided by various forces for greater good, the changes will hopefully happen sooner than later. It will take time. I support those who want to fight through and remain in the church as the changes happen. My heart aches those who feel socially “trapped” or stuck, I can so very much relate. I also wish peace and healing to those who have left. I am still currently active, generally bite my tongue on Sunday and hold a recommend.