NOM

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:20 am ... but the Ketamine is there if/when I hit those REALLY deep valleys and just can't seem to get out in any conventional way.

That's wonderful. Imagine someday having a toolkit to work from. This is really the first step psychiatry has made for many decades.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:59 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:20 am ... but the Ketamine is there if/when I hit those REALLY deep valleys and just can't seem to get out in any conventional way.

That's wonderful. Imagine someday having a toolkit to work from. This is really the first step psychiatry has made for many decades.

Indeed. I think there are yet discoveries to be made to help people who are trying to overcome various types and severity of mental illness.

Here's a fascinating podcast about the importance of psychedelics in the development of religion, and consequently to civilization.

https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode ... muraresku/

There's an idea that comes out of some discussion toward the end that I find very interesting. The guest observes that the mystical experience is a natural product of the human mind but that it comes more naturally to some than others. Those whose brains spontaneously produce mystical are called prophets, seers, shamans, etc.

Some people devote their lives to meditation, fasting, and other forms of discipline to create a doorway into mystical experience. Some achieve it, but it's a hit or miss proposition because until they've experienced it they don't really know what they're looking for.

Psychedelics can, at least for many people, unlock that door to various degrees and help point the way.

My observation: this is why ancient religions relied heavily on psychedelics and why I predict more and more new religions will also. Religion once actually delivered. Now it just promises. Psychedelics also deliver. People looking for mystical experiences who become disillusioned with religions that require much but give little are beginning to find their way back to ancient religious sources.

I just ordered the podcast interviewee's book because it talks about the latest archaeological evidence that supports the essential nature of psychedelics in ancient religion. The first researcher who suggested that the kykeon used by initiates in the Eleusinian Mysteries was actually ergotized beer (i.e. LSD) suffered intense professional persecution. Now there is archaeological evidence that he was correct.

The anointing oil used by Israelite priests had psychedelic properties. Ancient temples from the region burned cannabis and psychedelic dmt-rich plants. The Soma used by the Indus Valley civilizations that "made us gods" was undoubtedly psychedelic. The Maya and Aztecs used psilocybin mushrooms and peyote. Mescaline-producing cacti and ayahuasca for South American civilizations. And so on. And there is evidence going back thousands of years all the way to early animistic religions. Even early Christian writers were unabashed in their praise of psychedelic substances as a tool for communing with Christ.

Now we just have bread and water. And organ music.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:58 am

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:42 pm I am reading Ram Dass biography right now...

...Now starting to learn about Yogananda

I hope you will share some highlights with us.

I searched until I found the original 1945 version of Yogananda's autobiography rather than the new version going around. I'm not sure what piece of the human mind is drawn to tales of miracles - those who can float, tales of those who can read minds, who have lived past normal life expectancies, who cast visions and materialize themselves, stop their hearts and start them again, take large doses of drugs with no effect.... On the cover page is the quote "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe" John 4:48 .... The book does have the power to carry you away, I caught myself calculating capillary forces of water in trees after the book made a convincing at first glance statement that trees had heartbeats, that their cells contracted to push water up the trunk.. It was not true. There are no real documented cases of people actually stopping their hearts. With each description of miracles in the book is the idea of pursuing enlightenment not parlor tricks, that the parlor tricks are just the side effects, and not to be sought after - the same "do not seek for signs" kind of thing. There are interesting MRI studies of how meditation does actually change your brain, and some wheat among the tares as in all groups. It is good science fiction.

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:24 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:58 am

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:42 pm I am reading Ram Dass biography right now...

...Now starting to learn about Yogananda

I hope you will share some highlights with us.

I searched until I found the original 1945 version of Yogananda's autobiography rather than the new version going around. I'm not sure what piece of the human mind is drawn to tales of miracles - those who can float, tales of those who can read minds, who have lived past normal life expectancies, who cast visions and materialize themselves, stop their hearts and start them again, take large doses of drugs with no effect.... On the cover page is the quote "Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe" John 4:48 .... The book does have the power to carry you away, I caught myself calculating capillary forces of water in trees after the book made a convincing at first glance statement that trees had heartbeats, that their cells contracted to push water up the trunk.. It was not true. There are no real documented cases of people actually stopping their hearts. With each description of miracles in the book is the idea of pursuing enlightenment not parlor tricks, that the parlor tricks are just the side effects, and not to be sought after - the same "do not seek for signs" kind of thing. There are interesting MRI studies of how meditation does actually change your brain, and some wheat among the tares as in all groups. It is good science fiction.

Myths are a way of encoding information in stories that are fantastic or irrational in some way that makes them memorable. I think people respond to myths as a way of framing ideas and norms when the fundamental, abstract concept itself is difficult to visualize or summarize. It is a way of passing down information about what is culturally important. In a culture that is centered around a person the myths, of course, will be exaggerations of things that person said, did, or experienced. Their main goal is to maintain the sense of awe that accompanied that person's presence to later generations.

Mormonism is a wonderful example of how quickly myths evolve in the gaps to create useful bridges. Was Joseph Smith literally visited by Peter, James, and John, and did they lay hands on his head and pass the Melchizedek priesthood on to him? Did Brigham Young transform into Joseph Smith? Did Jesus appear to Lorenzo Snow and tell him to break norms and form a presidency immediately? Of course not, but just look how powerful those myths have been in crystalizing the notion that there is an unbroken chain of authority that has been carefully orchestrated by God.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:29 pm
Myths are a way of encoding information in stories that are fantastic or irrational in some way that makes them memorable. I think people respond to myths as a way of framing ideas and norms when the fundamental, abstract concept itself is difficult to visualize or summarize. It is a way of passing down information about what is culturally important. In a culture that is centered around a person the myths, of course, will be exaggerations of things that person said, did, or experienced. Their main goal is to maintain the sense of awe that accompanied that person's presence to later generations.

Mormonism is a wonderful example of how quickly myths evolve in the gaps to create useful bridges. Was Joseph Smith literally visited by Peter, James, and John, and did they lay hands on his head and pass the Melchizedek priesthood on to him? Did Brigham Young transform into Joseph Smith? Did Jesus appear to Lorenzo Snow and tell him to break norms and form a presidency immediately? Of course not, but just look how powerful those myths have been in crystalizing the notion that there is an unbroken chain of authority that has been carefully orchestrated by God.

For the Yogi's, there are rumors it started as a way to intimidate neighboring hostile forces. Spread rumors of powerful mystical yogi's living somewhere and people are less likely to attack you. Patriotic citizens keep the rumors alive, the yogi's make a good living of people giving them $ for their spiritual guidance, it becomes entrenched and part of what everyone believes is essential for survival, and it is still going on today with fervent believers who all "feel the spirit" - literally - over what is in their mind. I have felt "the spirit" or whatever you want to call it too, in several different groups with vastly different beliefs. It is an incredible thing, and I still do not understand what that feeling is. It does not "testify of truth", it does not protect, or prophecy of future events. It can bond people together, it can elevate you. I do think "elevation emotion" is the closest thing, although I would not call it an "emotion" as it is different from that. "elevation" yes.

For those of us who have spent time in a cult, there are some who want to fill that void by joining another cult. Like someone who goes through a divorce, and then jumps into some horrible re-bound relationship immediately afterwards. I do think there are some healthy forms of spirituality out there, but am being very cautious about it. I'm guessing that "real" spirituality is in moderation - just keep away from the extremes, take things small steps at a time, cautious, moderate, try small bites here and there.

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:42 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:29 pm
Myths are a way of encoding information in stories that are fantastic or irrational in some way that makes them memorable. I think people respond to myths as a way of framing ideas and norms when the fundamental, abstract concept itself is difficult to visualize or summarize. It is a way of passing down information about what is culturally important. In a culture that is centered around a person the myths, of course, will be exaggerations of things that person said, did, or experienced. Their main goal is to maintain the sense of awe that accompanied that person's presence to later generations.

Mormonism is a wonderful example of how quickly myths evolve in the gaps to create useful bridges. Was Joseph Smith literally visited by Peter, James, and John, and did they lay hands on his head and pass the Melchizedek priesthood on to him? Did Brigham Young transform into Joseph Smith? Did Jesus appear to Lorenzo Snow and tell him to break norms and form a presidency immediately? Of course not, but just look how powerful those myths have been in crystalizing the notion that there is an unbroken chain of authority that has been carefully orchestrated by God.

For the Yogi's, there are rumors it started as a way to intimidate neighboring hostile forces. Spread rumors of powerful mystical yogi's living somewhere and people are less likely to attack you. Patriotic citizens keep the rumors alive, the yogi's make a good living of people giving them $ for their spiritual guidance, it becomes entrenched and part of what everyone believes is essential for survival, and it is still going on today with fervent believers who all "feel the spirit" - literally - over what is in their mind. I have felt "the spirit" or whatever you want to call it too, in several different groups with vastly different beliefs. It is an incredible thing, and I still do not understand what that feeling is. It does not "testify of truth", it does not protect, or prophecy of future events. It can bond people together, it can elevate you. I do think "elevation emotion" is the closest thing, although I would not call it an "emotion" as it is different from that. "elevation" yes.

For those of us who have spent time in a cult, there are some who want to fill that void by joining another cult. Like someone who goes through a divorce, and then jumps into some horrible re-bound relationship immediately afterwards. I do think there are some healthy forms of spirituality out there, but am being very cautious about it. I'm guessing that "real" spirituality is in moderation - just keep away from the extremes, take things small steps at a time, cautious, moderate, try small bites here and there.

I absolutely love everything you said here, Angel. I'm all about separating the experience of "feeling the spirit" from the religions who claim to own it. No one owns "the spirit," whatever the hell it is, and as soon as you hand over the reigns to an organization who claims to control your access to it you give up something very important. Not that it doesn't work for some people, but I would rather open my mouth and catch the rain, rather than sip from a half-full sacrament cup. If you don't know you can genuinely feel the spirit while looking at the night sky or walking through the forest, it's something you really should learn. And it can be magnified by groups, which is something that churches take advantage of. Ask wtfluff about his spiritual experience at a heavy metal concert! I have actually been taught in church that if you claim to feel the spirit in nature you are succumbing to a counterfeit spirit that Satan uses to make you think you don't need to be in church or reading the Book of Mormon to feel the real spirit. There is nothing that undermines a religion's authority than coming to the realization that we all have equal access, and there's no such thing as genuine religious authority. I feel the same about gurus, although I'm sure there are teachers out there, among the sea of charlatans, who really could be valuable guides if you could find one.

A couple of years ago I read the stories of some early yogas and I noticed that they follow patterns like what you described. Wunderkinds who understood more than "normal" people from an early age, who performed miracles of certain genres. Again, I was reminded of Joseph Smith and how conveniently mythology appears in a vacuum and takes root so easily in minds that are starving for confirmation.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:58 am ... If you don't know you can genuinely feel the spirit while looking at the night sky or walking through the forest, it's something you really should learn. And it can be magnified by groups, which is something that churches take advantage of. Ask wtfluff about his spiritual experience at a heavy metal concert!...

Heavy metal concert, . Shortly after I first left, I was a bit down and missing the feeling. I couldn't find my lemon pepper, so I said a quick prayer - that if I wasn't on the naughty list, please help me find my lemon pepper, and had the most wonderful feeling sweep over, and I found my little jar. From that point on, everything was good. It's so random, I can't figure it out. I don't always feel it when surrounded by beauty or in situations where it seems like I should... and then feel it over something stupid like lemon pepper

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:58 am Ask wtfluff about his spiritual experience at a heavy metal concert!

How did I miss this Fluffy mention?

I "know" that Iron Maiden is True™ (No entheogens, or lemon pepper involved.)