NOM

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:31 pm As a historian, I felt dirty watching Grow and Holbrook defend the indefensible.

So disappointing. Same old same old.

I couldn't watch much live, so will need to check the replay.

But from what I did see, it felt like more inoculation. They dipped their toes on a few subjects, but clearly avoided getting into the real dirty parts of the topics while also trying to tell members not to listen to those who seek to tear down their answers.

So if you're a TBM you nod along and love it. If you have doubts... the question is whether or not you go and dig deeper, and if you do, if you listen to the church and avoid the sources that seek to "tear down" the church.

I don't think it stops the bleeding - this felt like a PR event for the Saints book. I just don't think this does much outside of some Deseret News/LDS Living articles while everything else continues on the trajectory we've been on.

Mr. Cook made what I consider the most revealing, marvelous and honest Freudian slip of the evening. Possibly of the century. I have it dvr'd and actually went back to make sure he said what I thought he did. Yep, he did.

He noted that in preparation for this evening, he and Sis. Cook visited many of the historical landmarks of the restoration, including "Carthage jail where the SAVIOR was martyred."

I think that says it all for me...

Palerider wrote:Mr. Cook made what I consider the most revealing, marvelous and honest Freudian slip of the evening. Possibly of the century. I have it dvr'd and actually went back to make sure he said what I thought he did. Yep, he did.

He noted that in preparation for this evening, he and Sis. Cook visited many of the historical landmarks of the restoration, including "Carthage jail where the SAVIOR was martyred."

I think that says it all for me...

You need to supply that footage to thinker of thoughts' blog.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:27 pm

Palerider wrote:Mr. Cook made what I consider the most revealing, marvelous and honest Freudian slip of the evening. Possibly of the century. I have it dvr'd and actually went back to make sure he said what I thought he did. Yep, he did.

He noted that in preparation for this evening, he and Sis. Cook visited many of the historical landmarks of the restoration, including "Carthage jail where the SAVIOR was martyred."

I think that says it all for me...

You need to supply that footage to thinker of thoughts' blog.

I probably would if I wasn't so tech challenged. I'm sure I'm not the only one who caught that. It was hugely obvious.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:47 pm You tube showed about 5,300 people watching.

How many of the 5300 are the 'loyal opposition' or not-so-loyal opposition?

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:32 pm He noted that in preparation for this evening, he and Sis. Cook visited many of the historical landmarks of the restoration, including "Carthage jail where the SAVIOR was martyred."

I think that says it all for me...

Let me give the thinnest benefit of the doubt that Elder Cook simply got briefly tongue tied and the other apostles will have a friendly chuckle at his expense when they meet next Thursday. But, with all of the gaslighting going on that evening, unintentionally equating Joseph Smith with Jesus seemed like an unfortunate expectation for the evening

Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:32 pm He noted that in preparation for this evening, he and Sis. Cook visited many of the historical landmarks of the restoration, including "Carthage jail where the SAVIOR was martyred."

I think that says it all for me...

Let me give the thinnest benefit of the doubt that Elder Cook simply got briefly tongue tied and the other apostles will have a friendly chuckle at his expense when they meet next Thursday. But, with all of the gaslighting going on that evening, unintentionally equating Joseph Smith with Jesus seemed like an unfortunate expectation for the evening

Oh, no doubt.

His mouth said "Carthage" and his brain thought, "What goes with Calvary?" and his mouth said "Savior"....or something like that.

But as you say, it was very unfortunate on the one hand and yet really ironic in another.

You know a Freudian slip is defined as:

"an unintentional error regarded as revealing subconscious feelings."

I'm sure elder Cook would vehemently deny worshipping Joseph and would spend six or seven paragraphs defining and clarifying what he meant to say and what church doctrine really is. But what he actually said has so much poetic justice hidden inside it. You have to wonder if the Lord wasn't helping him a little right there. Sort of having a poke at him....

Wife and I watched this last night. They're making an effort to be more transparent, I'll give them that. But I hate it when they keep saying things like, "We're as transparent as we know how to be." and, "We're as transparent as we can be."

They've hidden information for DECADES. Discussions about the multiple first vision accounts should have happened in the 1930s, but didn't happen at all until a leak forced their hand in the 60s. Information about the Book of Abraham papyri not being "written by his own hand" should have happened in the 60's and 70s, but it was all unofficial or anti-mormon information until the internet forced it into the public view.

They've had 30-90 years to cover many of these topics and they haven't. They made the decision to leave it alone, to not discuss it, to hope that no one ever noticed.

And now they will pay the price.

My wife thought it was a really helpful discussion for people with difficult questions.

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:27 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:32 pm He noted that in preparation for this evening, he and Sis. Cook visited many of the historical landmarks of the restoration, including "Carthage jail where the SAVIOR was martyred."

I think that says it all for me...

Let me give the thinnest benefit of the doubt that Elder Cook simply got briefly tongue tied and the other apostles will have a friendly chuckle at his expense when they meet next Thursday. But, with all of the gaslighting going on that evening, unintentionally equating Joseph Smith with Jesus seemed like an unfortunate expectation for the evening

Oh, no doubt.

His mouth said "Carthage" and his brain thought, "What goes with Calvary?" and his mouth said "Savior"....or something like that.

But as you say, it was very unfortunate on the one hand and yet really ironic in another.

You know a Freudian slip is defined as:

"an unintentional error regarded as revealing subconscious feelings."

I'm sure elder Cook would vehemently deny worshipping Joseph and would spend six or seven paragraphs defining and clarifying what he meant to say and what church doctrine really is. But what he actually said has so much poetic justice hidden inside it. You have to wonder if the Lord wasn't helping him a little right there. Sort of having a poke at him....

I missed that. When did the Freudian slip occur?

See my first post on this thread.

On my DVR I found it starting with about 0:07.17 left in the program.

It's getting towards the end of the program where Cook describes his preparations for this event.

græy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:26 am Wife and I watched this last night. They're making an effort to be more transparent, I'll give them that. But I hate it when they keep saying things like, "We're as transparent as we know how to be." and, "We're as transparent as we can be."

They've hidden information for DECADES. Discussions about the multiple first vision accounts should have happened in the 1930s, but didn't happen at all until a leak forced their hand in the 60s. Information about the Book of Abraham papyri not being "written by his own hand" should have happened in the 60's and 70s, but it was all unofficial or anti-mormon information until the internet forced it into the public view.

They've had 30-90 years to cover many of these topics and they haven't. They made the decision to leave it alone, to not discuss it, to hope that no one ever noticed.

And now they will pay the price.

My wife thought it was a really helpful discussion for people with difficult questions.

And that's the answer. I was long gone at that point and didn't hear the transparent comment, but you're bang on with this. No, they aren't transparent, they hid and obfuscated the truth. End of story.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:45 am

And that's the answer. I was long gone at that point and didn't hear the transparent comment, but you're bang on with this. No, they aren't transparent, they hid and obfuscated the truth. End of story.

Faith promotion, authority and loyalty are where they live, man.

Truth has always been a tertiary consideration. An ugly step-sister.

If there's something stinky under the rug just ignore it and pretend it isn't there. If you don't look at it, it really doesn't exist.

But the internet has raised the rug. And now the house stinks so bad people don't want to live there anymore. I noticed Cook took a swipe at the internet last night. Yeah, they live in fear of that tool of the devil.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:45 am I missed that. When did the Freudian slip occur?

Try this:

https://youtu.be/K_ste5qjZPQ?t=6199

(Hasn't been edited out... Yet. )

græy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:26 am
They've had 30-90 years to cover many of these topics and they haven't. They made the decision to leave it alone, to not discuss it, to hope that no one ever noticed.

Worse yet, they excommunicated individuals who brought any of it to the public eye.

They owe big apologies to many individuals and their families that suffered from this.

As was noted earlier, they do not get into specifics. They tell us to go read the essays. So, there's no opportunity to really dive into subjects like the first vision. But that probably would not affect most members. If you get into differences into the accounts, eyes glaze over even when the differences call into question the basic doctrines it is used to teach.

blazerb wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:18 pm They tell us to go read the essays.

Yeah, and then what? There is no followup for problems you find in the essays or questions that are not answered by them. The real purpose of the essays is precisely so they can say "go read the essays," then dust off their hands and walk away, knowing that a) very few members will actually read the essays, and b) those who do read them and are not satisfied can and will be treated as unrepentant, hard-hearted, darkened-countenanced lesser-thans.

Hagoth wrote:

blazerb wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:18 pm They tell us to go read the essays.

Yeah, and then what? There is no followup for problems you find in the essays or questions that are not answered by them. The real purpose of the essays is precisely so they can say "go read the essays," then dust off their hands and walk away, knowing that a) very few members will actually read the essays, and b) those who do read them and are not satisfied can and will be treated as unrepentant, hard-hearted, darkened-countenanced lesser-thans.

I've always wondered will my darkened countenance help protect me from skin cancer?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:03 am

deacon blues wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:45 am I missed that. When did the Freudian slip occur?

Try this:

https://youtu.be/K_ste5qjZPQ?t=6199

(Hasn't been edited out... Yet. )

Thanks for linking that! I kept going back over his precatory comments and couldn't find it. Now I know why!

I have to admit I have misspoken enough that I will give Elder Cook the benefit of the doubt on this. It is funny, though, isn't it?

The thing I find more problematic is leading off with the question about hiding church history. Why does this always come up? Why was it the first question they answered?

Because it is a perennial problem! And the side-stepping of the issue doesn't help people who know the church has been hiding stuff for decades.

I immediately thought of Exhibit A in this regard, which is Boyd K. Packer's talk, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect," which loosely translated means, "The Church Leaders are Far, Far Greater than Your Puny Brain," or put another way, "When the Prophet Speaks, the Thinking has been Done."

I saw how Elder Cook tried to get around this one by specifically limiting his claims of not hiding history to the 22-years he has been an apostle. He seems to have been trying to avoid the Elder Ballardism from last November that church leaders have never hidden anything about the church.

But even then, I have to say that Elder Cook is the apostle who claimed in GC a few years back that the church is not losing members in unprecedented numbers; that in fact, the church is strong!

So his record on telling the truth is not stellar, which makes me tend to doubt his claims about the LDS Church not hiding history even within the 22-years of his apostolic tenure.

I have to listen to the whole thing when I have the chance.

May want to do a podcast on it or something . . .

consiglieri wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:22 pmSo his record on telling the truth is not stellar, which makes me tend to doubt his claims about the LDS Church not hiding history even within the 22-years of his apostolic tenure.

The best way to prove their claim of not hiding would be unlimited access to all documents and full financial disclosure. Until then, they are intentionally hiding things.