NOM

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:40 pm It's really sad though in hindsight to think I was OK with this before, and just saying "I didn't know any better" doesn't help because I should have been a critical thinker and I should have been wiling to ask questions of a church I so readily gave my time, loyalty, and money to.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:19 pm In the process of working on my page to try and cover the LDS essays and other problems with the church, I wanted to compile a list of reasons (something of a summary of the entire page) as to why the church can't be true.

Originally I was thinking it would be a top ten type thing, but it ended up being 25. A bit long so i might need to find a way to format it so it's not as daunting.

Anyway - if you're bored and want to check it out, you can find it at https://ldsdiscussion.wixsite.com/mysite/summary

The 15 points made now are:
1. The Book of Abraham
2. King James Errors and Deutero-Isaiah
3. The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible Plagiarism
4. Polygamy and Polyamory
5. Book of Mormon Translation - Church Narrative vs. Church History
6. DNA and the Changing Lamanites
7. Anachronisms
8. Significant Changes to Key Revelations
9. The Retrofitted Priesthood Restoration
10. Ban on Blacks from the Priesthood and All Temple Ordinances
11. Role of Women - Lack of Priesthood, Treatment During Polygamy, Etc
12. Treatment of the LGBT Community
13. Complete Lack of Discernment by Prophets and Church Leaders
14. The Transfiguration of Brigham Young and Other Faith Promoting Stories
15. Brigham Young
16. Lack of Proof for Joseph Smith's Prophetic Abilities or the Book of Mormon
17. The Lost 116 Pages
18. No Advancement in the Book of Mormon Culture
19. Joseph Smith and the Convenience of Revelations
20. The Everchanging LDS Apologists
21. Joseph Smith 'Mixtape' Theory (in progress)
22. Church History of Hiding/Suppressing Evidence
23. Lack of Modern Day Revelation
24. Spiritual Witnesses/Where Will You Go?
25. Joseph Smith

Anyway... if you make it through let me know - I tried to be semi-brief on the topics but looking at them all at once ends up being fairly long. I also need to format it cleaner so the start of the page allows readers to jump around to the different #s.. but it's a start!

Reuben wrote:

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:40 pm It's really sad though in hindsight to think I was OK with this before, and just saying "I didn't know any better" doesn't help because I should have been a critical thinker and I should have been wiling to ask questions of a church I so readily gave my time, loyalty, and money to.

You were hacked, and then programmed to believe that not believing in Mormonism would lead to a fate worse than death. Not thinking critically about Mormonism became a matter of survival.

But you did it anyway.

Yeah, it took a while. So what?

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:12 am
I haven’t had the chance yet to visit the site or read them through. I saw on Reddit though that you’re still planning on having it hosted somewhere else. I have an unlimited hosting plan with name.com already, I’d be happy to host it there if you’re interested.

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:36 pm What about the church's history of covering up the activities of sexual predators in leadership positions? Maybe discuss with item 22 but I think the current event situation goes beyond history. The church has been paying off victims and covering up crimes of local and general leadership for a long time. The act of covering up puts members at risk. Members who are being socially manipulated and groomed to be sexually exploited and controlled. The church also uses guilt about having a sex drive to control the members. The church is obsessed with sex. On the one hand using a sex drive against members, to keep them always guilty and always repenting and always needing church authority, and on the other hand protecting sexual predators who are insiders to the church leadership structure. The churches willingness to protect itself at the expense of members reveals a very dark heart.

Arcturus wrote: ↑Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:28 am I think this could be helpful to add to your cite. Along the lines of Hagoth's "Origins of Mormon Doctrine" post. Behrens (2006). Influence of Dartmouth on Mormon theology.

Edit: Could be added to section 21 on your summary page. IMO, the possibility of Hyrum and Joseph "borrowing" theology from the speculation at Dartmouth could be more damning than the similarities to Swedenborgism. There's some extremely specific theological points posited by Prof John Smith that appears to be more than coincidence. Furthermore, the fact that Spaulding himself studied at Moor's academy (possibly overlapped with Hyrum there?) gives a little more credence to the theory of *some* of Spaulding's work being plagiarized in the BofM.

hiding in plain sight wrote:Great list and great discussion. This should be a keeper for all NOMs.

As for me, I am now just sticking with two issues, if any mormons actually care to have a conversation.

1) The Book of Mormon isn't true.
2) See number 1.

And I don't even go into anachronisms, plagiarisms, fake histories, etc.

I just stay with that its key doctrines about the plan of salvation can't be true, if what is taught in D&C 76 and SS every week are true as well. They both can't be true.

Great list.

hiding in plain sight wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:42 am Great list and great discussion. This should be a keeper for all NOMs.

As for me, I am now just sticking with two issues, if any mormons actually care to have a conversation.

1) The Book of Mormon isn't true.
2) See number 1.

And I don't even go into anachronisms, plagiarisms, fake histories, etc.

I just stay with that its key doctrines about the plan of salvation can't be true, if what is taught in D&C 76 and SS every week are true as well. They both can't be true.

Great list.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:25 am
Or put another way - no one that is TBM will ever accept that the BoM is not true without a shock to the system. So this list is designed to say "Here are 30 pieces of the puzzle, and here are why the apologetics just do not work for those issues. Put together, there is no way this can hold up to any level of truth."

In the end it probably won't change many (if any) minds, but it's been a good way to process the info for me as well as try to find a way to integrate apologetic answers to these issues so that people don't just go to FAIR and say "Oh he was lying about that," when in fact FAIR is the one doing the deflection/gaslighting/whatever.