NOM

Hagoth wrote: If GM is going where I think he is, all of this will come together amazingly.

Given our other conversations, it is indeed going there, and even further than I have taken anybody so far!!! Sorry it has taken me so long to get this stuff out there. However, I must say I enjoy presenting this stuff in this type of forum. The back and forth is always appreciated.

George Miller wrote:

Hagoth wrote: If GM is going where I think he is, all of this will come together amazingly.

Given our other conversations, it is indeed going there, and even further than I have taken anybody so far!!!

Giddyup!

George Miller wrote:Given our other conversations, it is indeed going there, and even further than I have taken anybody so far!!! Sorry it has taken me so long to get this stuff out there. However, I must say I enjoy presenting this stuff in this type of forum. The back and forth is always appreciated.

This is fascinating. Will this material end up in a book or as a presentation at Sunstone or the Mormon History Association? Maybe FairMormon would enjoy this material.

Hagoth wrote:

George Miller wrote:

Hagoth wrote: If GM is going where I think he is, all of this will come together amazingly.

Given our other conversations, it is indeed going there, and even further than I have taken anybody so far!!!

Giddyup!

How do you spell GIddyup! in "Reformed Egyptian"?

Does your Tapir understand the modern pronunciation?

[/Threadjack]

wtfluff wrote:

Hagoth wrote:

George Miller wrote: Given our other conversations, it is indeed going there, and even further than I have taken anybody so far!!!

Giddyup!

How do you spell GIddyup! in "Reformed Egyptian"?

That would be stand-feather-hand-hand-feather-feather-quail-stool, but pronounced with a Hebrew accent.

http://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-hi ... ypewriter/

Corsair wrote:

George Miller wrote:Given our other conversations, it is indeed going there, and even further than I have taken anybody so far!!! Sorry it has taken me so long to get this stuff out there. However, I must say I enjoy presenting this stuff in this type of forum. The back and forth is always appreciated.

This is fascinating. Will this material end up in a book or as a presentation at Sunstone or the Mormon History Association? Maybe FairMormon would enjoy this material.

Hopefully this will up in a paper. You can think of this is as the first draft!!!! The next step would be a MHA or JWHA presentation followed by a publication. I have no desire to talk at a FAIR conference as I am a historian not an apologist.

We have established a solid connection between the Hor Book of Breathing and the Egyptian Alphabet in that the untranslated hieroglyphs from Part 2 and the all of the hieroglyphs from Parts 3-5 were copied in order from the Hor Book of Breathings directly into the Egyptian Alphabet. To better understand Joseph Smith's understanding of Egyptian and his translation methodology we must, however, focus on hieroglyphs Joseph Smith translated as opposed to the untranslated hieroglyphs. However, before we do that lets more generally at Joseph Smith's conception of the Egyptian and it's relationship to other languages. To do that let's look at the Joseph Smith's reveled pronunciations for some of the glyphs which appear in the Egyptian Alphabet.

Each page of the Egyptian Alphabet is divided into three columns. In the first column to the far right is a glyph derived from the Book of Abraham Papyri. The second column has the pronunciation of the hieroglyph to the immediate left. Finally, the third column contains a definition/explanation for the glyph. We can learn a lot about Joseph's Smith conception of the Egyptian language from a close examination of the pronunciations. Of particular note is that Joseph Smith's pronunciations do not agree with the scholarly consensus about Egyptian. However, scholars who have examined the documents have noticed a very peculiar asspect of Joseph Smith's pronunciations. Joseph Smith's translations betray an odd reliance on the Hebrew and Greek languages.

According to Smith, as reported by Cowdery, the hieroglpyhs were formed in ways similar to Hebrew letters.

Cowdery, [i]History of the Church[/i] 2:348 wrote:Upon the subject of the Egyptian records, or rather the writings of Abraham and Joseph, I may say a few words. This record [The Book of Joseph] is beautifully written upon papyrus with black, and a small part, red ink or paint in perfect preservation. The characters are such as you find upon coffins or mummies, hieroglyphics, &c. with many characters or letters like the present, (though probably not quite so square,) for of the Hebrew without points.

Thus for Smith many of the hieroglyphs had the appearance of a physical relationship between Hebrew letters. However, it was not only in form, but in pronunciation that the Egyptian characters were related to Hebrew.

Probably the erudite discussion of the Egyptian-Hebrew connection comes from Sam Brown's work in which he notes that, "several Hebrew letters are invoked in the KEP as names [pronunciations] for glyphs, including aleph (א), beth (ב), and gimel (ג)". Sam Brown discussed the first letter of the Hebrew language aleph (א) appears in the Egyptian Alphabet by noting that "Aleph is the top half of the Hebrew letter and means 'in the beginning with God, the son, or first born. The second letter Beta (ב) which is derived from a picture of a house is also discussed in Joseph Smith's translation according to Brown. "Ba eth [A] somewhat stylized but recognizable beth, while the glyph named Beth is a hatched single line meaning 'residence' " thus showing the reliance of multiple glyphs on the letter beth (ב). The third Hebrew letter gimel also makes it's appearance in the Egyptian Alphabet according to Sam Brown. "Gah mol appears to be gimel laid on its side and refers to "situation". Thus the Egyptian Alphabet suggests that a direct connection between Egyptian and Hebrew.

[quote="Brown, Joseph (Smith) in Egypt" Babel, Hieroglyphics, and the Pure Language of Eden, Church History 78:1, Cambridge University Press"]In addition Hebrew, the Egyptian Alphabet suggests a close relationship between Egyptian and Greek. For example Sam Brown has the following to say about Greek in the Egyptian Alphabet.
New Testament Greek terms and phrases also appear [in the Egyptian Alphabet]. Alpha and Omega are merged as Ahmeos, a letter rather like a capital alpha that means "God without beginning or end.". Hahdees, a glyph like the lowercase Greek lambda referring to the "kingdom of wickedness". [/quote]
Thus Joseph Smith's translation as found in the Egyptian Alphabet suggests that Joseph Smith not only believed that Hebrew was interrelated with Egyptian, but also that the Greek language might have a direct connection to Egyptian.

Joseph Smith's belief that the Egyptian language had a direct connection to both Hebrew and Greek seems like a strange proposition. However, when looked at through a Masonic lens, and in particular when viewed through the lens of Antiquities of Freemasonry, Joseph Smith's views become understandable.

This all reminds me of the apologetic I read which asserted that there were indeed relationships between Hebrew and Egyptian language with a result that could well be Joseph's "reformed Egyptian". Sadly, I am not a scholar and don't have the opportunity to pursue all such angles, but if it's anything like most Mopologetics, I suspect it likely wouldn't take long to get to the fatal flaw in the theory.

Regardless, thanks again George, for sharing all this here. I'm sure there several, like me, that very much appreciate it!

Vlad the emailer wrote:This all reminds me of the apologetic I read which asserted that there were indeed relationships between Hebrew and Egyptian language with a result could well be Joseph's "reformed Egyptian". Sadly, I am not a scholar and don't have the opportunity to pursue all such angles, but if it's anything like most Mopologetics, I suspect it likely wouldn't take long to get to the fatal flaw in the theory.

Regardless, thanks again George, for sharing all this here. I'm sure there several, like me, that very much appreciate it!

I remember reading Nibley's writings in which he was continually trying to draw these types of parallels. In my TBM days I thought these connections were so impressive. Today I realize how contorted these explanations are.

In the last post we established that underlying the Egyptian Alphabet's translations is a notion that Hebrew, Egyptian, and Greek are interrelated languages. In fact, several historians of Mormonism have discussed the somewhat unique role that the study of languages played in Joseph Smith's religious experience. For example Henry Caswall wrote in 1839 that the Mormons "consider the study of the Hebrew languages to be a religious duty." (Caswall, America and the American Church, 1839, 322-23) Thus Caswall recognized the emphasis in Mormonism on studying the alphabet and grammar of the ancient language Hebrew. As historian Sam Brown has said, "Translation mattered a great deal to Smith. It was crucial to his self-image and part of his original title as the founder of the Church of Christ." (Brown, The Language of Heaven, 53). So why did the first Mormon, Joseph Smith, consider it a religious duty to understand ancient languages and grammar? Examining Smith through a Masonic lens on this matter has great explanatory power.

Previously, we discussed how the role that Jacob's Ladder played in the first degree of Freemasonry and the appearance of this symbol on the first degree tracing board and Joseph Smith's Masonic apron. Above is the second degree tracing board which contains the symbols related to this degree. In the first Masonic degree Jacob's Ladder consists of variously three, seven, or ten steps. In the second Masonic degree this symbol reappears, but as the "winding stair" in King Solomon's temple leading to the Middle Chamber of the temple. Masonic exposes reported that the winding staircase was one of the central symbols of the Masonic second degree.

Duncan's Ritual wrote:The first thing that particularly attracted your attention on your passage here, was a representation of two brazen pillars, one on the left hand and the other on the right, which was explained to you by your conductor; after passing the pillars you passed a flight of winding stairs, consisting of three, five, and seven steps, which was likewise explained to you; after passing the stairs, you arrived at the outer door of the Middle Chamber, which you found closely guarded by the Junior Warden, who demanded of you the pass and token of the pass of a Fellow Craft; you next arrived at the inner door of the Middle Chamber, which you found guarded by the Senior Warden, who demanded of you the grip and word of a Fellow Craft. You have now arrived at the Middle Chamber where you are received and recorded a Fellow Craft.

While earlier the steps of the ladder focused on the Christian values of Faith, Hope, and Charity and/or the Kabbalistic principles of Wisdom, Strength, and Beauty. However, in the second degree the steps evolve from three to seven steps and the meaning in turn expands as revealed by exposes of the second degree.

The seven steps allude to the seven Sabbatical years, seven years of famine, seven years in building the Temple, seven golden candlesticks, seven wonders of the world, seven wise men of the east, seven planets; but, more especially, the seven liberal arts and sciences, which are grammar, rhetoric, logic, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. For this and many other reasons the number seven has ever been held in high estimation among Masons.

For someone steeped in a magical world view, the seven wise men of the east would likely be associated with magicians. In addition, the seven planets would have been important celestial intelligences upon which the Christian miracle worker would draw power. However, the Masonic lens would have focused on the seven liberal Arts and Sciences which every Mason was expected to make a deep study. Of the seven liberal arts and sciences, the first was Grammar of which the Masonic lecture described as such.

Webb, [i]The Freemason's Monitor[/i], 1821, p. 55 wrote:Grammar - Teaches the proper arrangement of words, according to the idiom or dialect of any particular people; and the excellency of pronunciation, which enables us to speak or write a language with accuracy, agreeable to reason and correct usage.

For Freemasons the study of grammar and the other seven liberal Arts and Sciences was not just an academic pursuit. The Masonic lecture emphasixed that the goal of these studies was to "discover the power, the wisdom, and the goodness, of the Grand Artificer of the Universe, and view with delight the proportions which connect this vast machine." Through the study of the Arts and Sciences, including grammar, a Mason was seeing the hand of God. As the lecture discussed, "By [the study of the Arts and Sciences] we account for the return of the seasons, and the variety of which each season displays to the discerning eye. Numberless worlds are around us, all framed by the same Divine Artist, which roll through the vast expanse, and are all conducted by the same unerring law of nature." (Webb, The Freemason's Monitor, 1821, p. 58)

The Masonic ideals have their root in the enlightenment; however, George Oliver would take these ideas and place them in the past among the earliest patriarchs in Antiquities of Freemasonry. For Oliver, the seven Arts an Sciences were "originally invented by Masons" and "were transmitted almost solely through their indefatigable zeal, before the invention of printing." The study of the seven liberal among the patriarchs had the goal of "applying their attainments to the knowledge and worship of the Supreme Creator and Governor of the World, which is the only true end of every scientific pursuit". However, among the spurious Masons such as the "descendants of Ham and Japhet, when they renounced the worship of the true God, and degenerated into idolatry" the Arts and Science were taught either for purely academic knowledge or in the service of idolatrous man-made religions.

So what did Oliver have to say about the nature of Grammar? Did he claim that Egyptian was connected to Greek and Hebrew? On this point George Oliver and Joseph Smith held strikingly similar conceptions, including ideas about the origins of languages understanding of Egyptian,

Antiquities of Freemasonry wrote:It is highly probable that there existed a great variety of dialects before the Flood, which would cause some general elements to be both useful and necessary for a beneficial intercourse amongst mankind.The migration of Cain into distant parts would separate his family from the rest of the world for some ages; and the exclusive pursuits in which they engaged would materially alter the original language: for new wants and new acquirements would demand new names and phrases, which, being adopted from fancy or accident, would in a few years change the character of the language altogether. The same causes would produce an alteration in the language of every tribe which lived separate from the general settlement of Adam; and repeated migrations doubtless took place, even during the life-time of the Patriarch, from the rapid increase of the human race, under the advantages of antediluvian longevity, which, without intercourse, must of necessity produce so many radical changes in the primitive language, as to fill the the world with new and differing dialects, as infinite as the numerous tribes who might plant colonies in every part of the habitable globe.

Thus the "primitive language" of Adam was only preserved by the faithful Speculative Masons of Adam's family which stayed close to Adam. In contrast, the descendants of Cain already had corrupted their language. Thus Oliver suggested that spoken language had quickly changed among the descendants of Cain, but remained pure with Adam and his descendants. But why?

Antiquities of Freemasonry wrote:Before the time of Enoch, neighboring tribes had established a social intercourse with each other, which, by the intervention of boats, might in some cases be extended to a considerable distance over the sea, having for its basis mutual wants and mutual contrivances. This intercourse rendered some simple medium necessary for the better interpretation of strange languages. An object so desirable became the universal study; an it was at length effected by Enoch, who invented an alphabet to perpetuate sounds, and with it adopted some general rules for fixing the characters of language: - and this grammar, which had indeed been long used before such a science was actually known in it proper specific form. Its essence was coeval with language; for the use of speech included the idea of arranging words in such order as to convey an intelligible meaning. The invention of letters would naturally inspire the idea of converting this faculty into a science, and hence its most simple elements may be ascribe to Enoch.

This alphabet acquiring increased accessions of grammatical improvements before the translation of Enoch, was committed by that excellent Patriarch to Methuselah, and by him to Noah, with whom it survived the Flood, and was transmitted by him and his sons, to all the generations of the world.

Thus, according to Oliver, it was Enoch who invented a phonetic alphabet and formalized the rules of grammar. Thus the study grammar in it's most primitive of forms would take one back to the great patriarch Enoch's and to the primitive language of Adam. However, how did this primitive alphabet evolve according to George Oliver after the Tower of Babel?

Antiquities of Freemasonry wrote:Noah carried his alphabet to China, where, in the hands of a jealous and suspicious people, it underwent changes without improvement. With the descendants of Shem it continued to improve, until it arrived at the perfection which the Hebrew dialect so early attained. The Persian language was founded by his son Elam, and is evidently a dialect of Hebrew. The thirteen sons of Joktan carried the same language and alphabet into Arabia, where, unpossessed of literary genius, its inhabitants suffered it to asssume a new character, which, though nervous and bold, retained it original simplicity. This was the dialect in which the Book of Job is said to be written. By Ham and his son Mizraim, this alphabet was conveyed to Egypt, whose philosophers and priests, in process of time, substituted hieroglyphical for alphabetical characters, that their attainments might be kept secret from the mass of mankind. The Egyptian Cadmus, improving upon the general principles of adapting an alphabet peculiar to the characteristic principles of every distinct language. He carried a new alphabet, consisting of sixteen letters, into Greece, and for this reason considered by many as the inventor of letters.

Thus, according to Goerge Oliver, the original alphabet and grammar of Enoch passed in its most pure form into Hebrew through the descendants of Shem. However, Enoch's alphabet and grammar was co opted by the Egyptians and specifically designed by them to "keep secret" its meaning to the initiated. In addition, Oliver held that the Greek language was not to be considered an independent language derived from the confusion of tongues at the Tower of Babel, but instead Greek, especially its alphabet, was created by Egyptian Masons. Thus the Hebrew, Egyptian, and Greek alphabets and grammars were all interconnected. Even Arabic, from which our English numbering system derives, was connected to the original Enochian writing system according to George oliver.

While Joseph Smith's incorporation of Hebrew and Greek into his Egyptian Alphabet is incongruous with modern understandings of language, it is perfectly congruous with the conception of inter relatedness of Egyptian with Hebrew, Greek, and even Arabic as it is contained in Antiquities of Freemasonry. Could it be that Joseph Smith's understanding of how Egyptian was related to other languages was directly informed by Antiquities of Freemasonry? In addition, the Masonic inclination to view the study of the seven liberal arts and sciences, including Grammar, as a means of reaching into religious antiquity, seems to be mirrored in Smith's obsession with language.

in process of time, substituted hieroglyphical for alphabetical characters, that their attainments might be kept secret from the mass of mankind.

So in Oliver's corner of reality Egyptian Hieroglyphics are merely a cipher which could be decoded directly back to Enoch writing? All of this kind of explains why the word Angels (English) translates to Angls (Adamic AND Egyptian) in Joseph Smith's world.

Here's an interesting little tidbit (and I hope not too much of a threadjack) that I just found on Wikipedia:

The Latter Day Saint endowment prayer circle once included use of the words "Pay Lay Ale".[18] These untranslated words are no longer used in temple ordinances and have been replaced by an English version, "O God, hear the words of my mouth".[19] Some believe that the "Pay Lay Ale" sentence is derived from the Hebrew phrase "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God".[19]

Hagoth wrote:So in Oliver's corner of reality Egyptian Hieroglyphics are merely a cipher which could be decoded directly back to Enoch writing?

In large part you are correct. However, lets look a little closer to note some nuances which are very important to consider. Let's discuss Oliver's ideas about hieroglyphics a little closer.

Antiquities of Freemasonry wrote:We learn also from hieroglyphical inscriptions, which still exist in on Egyptian monuments, that speculative Masonry was originally known amongst that people, though afterwards deteriorated to advance a different interest, the propagation of idolatry. ... Of these inscriptions candour obliges me to remark, that their interpretation being rather equivocal, there are by no means a certain criterion of Masonic truth; particularly as the institution is founded on those leges non scriptæ, which are unattainable by all mankind excepting the initiated.

Thus for George Oliver the Egyptians practiced a form of Spurious Masonry which was degenerate in that its object was not the Grand Architect of the Universe but the idolatrous gods of the Egyptian mysteries. Because it had lost its focus on and connection to the Grand Architect of the Universe it had become "deteriorated" and impure.

Note that Oliver suggests that scholarly interpretations of hieroglyphics in his day were "equivocal", in part because scholars could not readily translate Egyptian until François Champollion published a method of translation based on the Rosetta Stone in 1822. Antiquities of Freemasonry, however, suggests a different reason why the hieroglyphics could not be translated other than simply a lack of academic knowledge. Instead, Egyptian could not be rightly translated because the secrets of deciphering Egyptian were "leges non scriptæ" (unwritten law(s)) which could only be leaned by going through the Egyptian Masonic mysteries and becoming "initiated".

Before continuing to discuss the conceptualization of Egyptian as described in Antiquities of Freemasonry, let's take a moment to discuss how someone such as Joseph Smith may have interpreted the above. In discussing Spurious Masonry Oliver would describe these Spurious Masonic rituals as follows.

Oliver, [i]AoF[/i], 113-113 wrote: The secrets inculcated in the lesser mysteries, or the inferior degrees, consisted principally in abstruse disquisitions on the origin of the universe, the arcana of hieroglyphics knowledge, under which many valuable and sublime truths were said to be shadowed, plausible theories of religion and worship adapted to their peculiar system of idolatry; and on the nature and attributes of each particular god.

Thus the "lesser mysteries" of Spurious Masonry consisted of multiple degrees in which the secrets of astronomy, sublime religious principles, and the attributes of the idolatrous gods were discussed. However, the initiate was told that the true nature of the Masonic secrets he was learning were only "shadows" of what they would learn in the "higher mysteries". Thus the truth was revealed to the initiate in degrees.

In addition to religious material, the "aracana of hieroglyphics" was taught to the initiate in the lesser mysteries, thus elucidating the symbolic mysteries of Masonry. Since the secrets of Masonry were built degree upon degree, a reader of Antiquities of Freemasonry would be led to believe that "arcana of hieroglyphics" among the Egyptians operated in a similar manner, by degrees. My own research suggests that Joseph Smith apprehended this idea from AoF and that this formed his elucidation of the hieroglyphics in five different degrees.

So after four years of initiation into the "lesser degrees" of Spurious Masonry, what was revealed to the aspirant in the higher mysteries?

AoF, 114-15 wrote:But after a probation of four years the mystae were admitted to a participation in the απορρητα or ineffable secrets. A knowledge of of the general deluge and the salvation of Noah and his three sons in the ark, with all the circumstances attending that remarkable event were communicated; the mystae were taught that the gods they worshipped had been mere mortals like themselves, and had not the most distant claim to the rites of divine worship; but for reasons of state that delusion was necessary to be preserved amongst the people. The unity of the Godhead was then inculcated, together with the doctrine of a future state of rewards and punishments. And when these secrets had been communicated, together with the system of morality conveyed in emblematical and hieroglyphic symbols, the perfect mystae were termed Epoptae, which implies that they see every thing truly and without disguise.

Readers of Antiquities of Freemasonry could easily surmise that those that had received the higher mysteries were exposed, at least in part, to the principles of Speculative Masonry including a knowledge of the "unity of the Godhead" as opposed to the system of idolatry. Importantly the meanings of the hieroglyphics interpretations conveyed previously over four years in the lesser mysteries were finally shown in the higher mysteries as "system of morality" which was conveyed in the higher degrees with "hieroglyphic symbols." Thus the "truth" in Spurious Egyptian Masonry was only to be revealed by degrees.

Not only did Oliver suggest that Spurious Masonry hid the truth, but the Egyptian language, unlike the Adamic tongue written in the Enochian script which pure, was meant to hide meanings from the uninitiated.

Oliver, [i]AoF[/i], 10-11 wrote:The tropical hieroglyphic, used for general purposes, was easily comprehended but the subsequent introduction of the tropical symbol cast the veil of secresy over [Egyptian] knowledge, and was employed for the purpose of concealing their sacred mysteries from common observation. But the tropical symbol was a very late improvement on the system of hieroglyphical writing: for the proper hieroglyphic was used many ages before the tropical symbol was invented, and possessed a significant meaning generally understood, and adapted to the same purposes as modern letters; to perpetuate a knowledge of past events, and to record the wisdom an experience of every age, for the benefit of posterity. The early hieroglyphics being of a very simple construction, their meaning was not of that doubtful character which rendered the subsequent use of enigmatic symbols so difficult of comprehension.

In the monumental inscriptions which still exist, the simple ancient hieroglyphic is blended with the more modern mystic character, which makes their interpretation somewhat dubious and uncertain.

Thus the ancient language of Speculative Masonry as spoken by Adam and written in characters created by Enoch was pure, simple, and straightforward. However, the language of the Egyptians was designed to conceal meaning, was revealed by degrees, and had a somewhat more ambiguous meaning.

While not discussed by Oliver, Joseph Smith likely had other ideas about the Adamic language which he combined with those elucidated by George Oliver. Joseph Smith's from his early days was told that the miracles of the ancient patriarchs were performed by drawing power down from heaving from the Grand Architect of the Universe, through the channels of angels, and through the divine power of the stars. To use this power required one to write in symbolic language and pronounce in a divine language, even the tongue of Adam, the names of each these intelligences. Without the correct written hieroglyphics and the pure Adamic pronunciation the powers of heaven could not be apprehended. As such Joseph would need to speak the Adamic tongue and write using pure Enochian hieroglyphics.

Hagoth wrote: All of this kind of explains why the word Angels (English) translates to Angls (Adamic AND Egyptian) in Joseph Smith's world.

Joseph Smith's conception of the Egyptian language was that while it borrowed from Enochian script and the Hebrew language, that it did not convey the proper Adamic pronunciation which would give it power. As such, Adamic had one pronunciation while Egyptian had another pronunciation. We will see this in Joseph Smith's translation of the first couple of hieroglyphs he restored by revelation in Part 2 of the Book of Abraham papyri. While Adamic used "angels" the Egyptian would use either "Al beth" or "Al ka beth". Thus Joseph Smith did believe he was translating Egyptian. In addition, he believed Egyptian had elements of Enochian hieroglyphics and Hebrew within it. However, one could not get to Adamic through Egyptian pronunciation. Instead, Adamic had closer ties with Hebrew than with Egyptian.

Hagoth wrote:Here's an interesting little tidbit (and I hope not too much of a threadjack) that I just found on Wikipedia:

The Latter Day Saint endowment prayer circle once included use of the words "Pay Lay Ale".[18] These untranslated words are no longer used in temple ordinances and have been replaced by an English version, "O God, hear the words of my mouth".[19] Some believe that the "Pay Lay Ale" sentence is derived from the Hebrew phrase "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God".[19]

Yes, here we see Joseph Smith trying to restore the Adamic language which he combines with Enochian symbolism in the form of physical movement to draw power from heaven to ascend by degrees into heaven to have communion and communication with the divine. I hope this clears up what I am saying a little bit. However, I would be more than happy to entertain further questions before I move on to the first couple of Egyptian hieroglyphs which Joseph Smith translated. For example, it might be helpful to explore a little bit more of what George Oliver discussed about hieroglyphics before moving forward.

Any questions by others? I know that there are a number of readers, at least as suggested by the thread counter. I would love to answer questions by anyone.

I just wanted to say thank you, George, for posting this here. Very interesting stuff. I don't have any questions yet as it's a lot to process and I'm still working my way through the thread.

I'm just bumping this thread in hopes that there is another chapter coming soon.

Hagoth wrote:

Here's an interesting little tidbit (and I hope not too much of a threadjack) that I just found on Wikipedia:

Some believe that the "Pay Lay Ale" sentence is derived from the Hebrew phrase "pe le-El" (פה לאל), "mouth to God".[19]

That is much more scholarly than the research I was able to come up with:

This seems more post-Raphael than Reformed Egyptian

Sorry for the delay guys. Hagoth, thanks for bumping the thread. I have been busy with end of the semester grading. In addition, it has taken some time for me to create the next set of graphics.

In the previous posts we discussed how Joseph Smith's understanding of Egyptian hieroglyphics has substantive parallels with descriptions of hieroglyphics found of George Oliver's Antiquities of Freemasonry. In particular, AoF describes close connections between Hebrew and Egyptian. Joseph Smith's conceptions of Egyptian may have influenced by AoF in that several of the characters in the Egyptian Alphabet such alpha and beth have pronunciations which Hebrew connections. In addition, AoF claims that the Egyptian language influenced both Greek and Arabic. Joseph Smith may have borrowed from these ideas in his creation of the Egyptian Alphabet in that it contains several pronunciations with connections to Greek. Joseph Smith may have also borrowed from ideas contained in AoF in that Joseph Smith's Egyptian Counting document, revealed translation of the Egyptian numeric system, shows a distinct relationship to the Arabic numeric system. However, not only does Smith's understanding of the Egyptian language have parallels in AoF, but the content of his translations of the Egyptian seem to converge with ideas which are distinctly found in Antiquities of Freemasonry.

In the next series of posts I will examine two hieroglyphs translated by Joseph Smith from Part 3 (Purple Column) of the Book of Abraham Papyri. I have chosen to start with these two characters because they are two of the most easily explained hieroglyphics for several reasons. The first hieroglyph is one which Joseph Smith claimed had the Egyptian pronunciation of Ki Ah broam Ki Ah brah oam Zub zool oan.

In the figure above a clearly depicted version of the hieroglyph is shown as a figure of an official holding a staff. When we examine the papyri we can see that the man's head and arms are clearly depicted but the legs are somewhat indistinct. Currently the inking of the staff has deteriorated and difficult to see, however, the staff was mostly likely extant in the 1830s as it is clearly depicted in the drawing of this hieroglyph in the Egyptian Alphabet.

Joseph Smith conception of hieroglyphics was that a single hieroglyphic could be dissected into multiple graphemes each with a pronunciation and a meaning. Joseph Smith's Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL) describes the dissection of this hieroglyph into five distinct graphemes. Each of these graphemes (numbered 1-5) also have a pronunciation. The first grapheme corresponds to the handle of the staff and has the pronunciation Ki. The second grapheme corresponds to the main body of he staff and has the pronunciation Ah broam. The third grapheme corresponds to the head of the man and has the pronunciation of Ki. The fourth grapheme consists of the torso and legs of man and has the pronunciation Ah brah oam. The fifth grapheme consists of the arms of arms of the man and is pronounced Zub zool oan. [Note: The pronunciation of this grapheme makes me laugh out loud every time I hear it because I can't help but think of the Zuul from Ghostbusters -- "I am Zuul!!!"]

This breaking down of hieroglyphics into parts which all have meanings is described in Antiquities of Freemasonry.

[T]heir figures were compounded one part or other of their symbols, to express more sensibly the natural effects of divine energy attributed to them. Thus Osiris, when he represented the power and all-seeing providence of the Supreme Being, had a human body with a hawk's head, and a sceptre in his hand, and decorated with the other regalia or ensigns of royalty. Orus was represented with a staff or pillar, the capital of which was surmounted by the head of the upupa, to signify, by the variegated feathers of a bird, the beautiful variety of the Creation. In one of his hands he held a lituus, to denote the harmony of the system; and gnomon in the other, to shew the perfect proportion of its parts. Behind him was a triangle inscribed in a circle, to signify that the world was made by the unerring wisdom of God. He had a cornucopia his hand, to denote the fertility of the earth.

Interesting that two different components are interpreted as Ki. Do these two Kis have different meanings? Also interesting that two of the grapheme combinations from the same character are suspiciously similar to the name Abraham.

Hagoth wrote:Interesting that two different components are interpreted as Ki. Do these two Kis have different meanings? Also interesting that two of the grapheme combinations from the same character are suspiciously similar to the name Abraham.

Hey Hagoth- It is great to hear from you. As always you are asking exactly the right questions. The first question you ask concerns the fact that there are two Ki's and you wanted to know if they held the same definitions. In your second question you suggested that the pronunciation of this hieroglyph Ki Ah broam Ki Ah brah oam Zub zool oan contains to parts which resemble the Abraham. Let me answer each one in turn.

In the figure above you see the dissected Ki Ah broam Ki Ah brah oam Zub zool oan hieroglyph broken down into its individual graphemes. To the right of each grapheme is the definition of each grapheme as contained in the GAEL. In looking at each definition you will notice that different portions of the definition are colored different colors. Each color represents a different degree of meaning- First Degree (Blue), Second Degree (Purple), Third Degree (Red), Fourth Degree (Yellow), and Fifth Degree (White). As we shall, see the choice of the word degree to describe increasing depth of meaning is NOT just happenstance. My research suggests the word degree is meant to be an allusion to Masonic degrees. However, before I explain my thinking on this, lets answer your question.

The GAEL gives definitions for the first Ki which is associated with Ah broam in the first, second, third, and fourth degrees. In the 1st-4th degrees the meaning refers to something (priesthood) which comes from the beginning (Adam) by right, birth, or lineage. The first Ki only applies to the lower degrees.

The GAEL gives definitions for the second Ki which is associated with Ah brah oam only in the 5th degree. In contrast to the the first Ki which comes by right of birth, the second Ki comes through a physical "blessing" and/or a "promise" or covenant with the divine.

Based on this and other data, it seems to suggest that Joseph Smith thoughts thought of priesthood power as requiring a genealogical connection to the primordial Adam. Joseph Smith likely thought of this form of priesthood as connected with the Old Testament birthright. However, this genealogical priesthood inherited by lineage was of a lesser degree than the highest degree of priesthood.

In the next post I will expand on this idea as we try to answer your second question - What is being conveyed in the two graphemes with a pronunciation similar to Abraham.

In the previous post we noted that we find in Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet (EA) and the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL) a conceptualization of the Egyptian hieroglyphics as being able to be dissected. This has similarities with what we see in AoF. In addition, we find that Joseph Smith's conception of Egyptian was that individual dissected parts (graphemes) had hidden meanings which developed over five different degrees. Where could this idea of hieroglyphic meaning developing over five degrees come from? One possibility is that it came from George Oliver's Antiquities of Freemasonry either directly or as an inference from the text.

One of the many themes developed in Antiquities of Freemasonry is how the symbolic teaching method in Masonry was extant in both the Egyptian Spurious Masonic tradition and the Patriarchal Speculative Masonic tradition. In fact, of the ten chapters of Antiquities of Freemasonry, an entire chapter is devoted to the subject. In this chapter, entitled On Symbolical Instruction, discusses the uses of Symbolic instruction both in the world's Mystery Traditions (Spurious Masonry) and in the Hebrew tradition. For example Oliver tells us that early on during the establishment of Egyptian that the Egyptian priest Thoth, the son of Mizraim, worked with his colleagues "whom were most certainly Masons" invented the"ingenious art of expressing all sorts of sounds by the different combinations of a few letters" which they spread with the Spurious Masonic rites throughout the world. While some of these written languages were designed to be simple and easily understood, "there was another, which was consecrate to divine things, and which few persons understood".

Thoth's secret language reserved for "divine things" was the language used in the propagation of Masonic secrets which "expressed the virtues, and the passions of the soul, the actions and the attributes of the gods, by the figures or animals, insects, plants, stars, and divers other symbological characters" which were "placed in their temples, and upon their obelisks". In other words, the language designed by Thoth to convey the secrets of Spurious Masonry was Egyptian. Unlike simple phonetic alphabets which were readily understood, Thoth "concealed the mysteries of religion under hieroglyphics and allegories, and exposed nothing to the eyes of the vulgar". Thus hieroglyphics were invented by Thoth with the express purpose of hiding Masonic secrets from the uninitiated. The reason for concealing divine truths was "that corrupted minds could have no relish for heavenly truths" until the had undergone initiation such that the initiates "heart was purified from its passions; for which reason [Thoth] spread over religion a secret veil, which opens and vanishes when the eyes of understanding are able to support its brightness." Thus the whole purpose of the hieroglyphics which Thoth invented was to hide from the uninitiated Masonic truths, but to reveal to the initiated the beauty of Masonic truths.

So according to Antiquities of Freemasonry how were hieroglyphics constructed to reveal information solely to the initiated? Oliver informs his reader that the "hieroglyphical inscriptions, which still exist on Egyptian on monuments" that "their interpretation [is] rather equivocal" since their meaning was designed to be "unattainable to all mankind excepting the initiated". Thoth's hieroglyphics were designed to "cast the veil of secrecy over their knowledge, and was employed for the purpose of concealing their sacred mysteries from common observation" and the only way to decipher hieroglyphics was to become an initiate.

If one could glean information about how Egyptian initiation worked, then one should able to discover some of the principles by which the initiate used to decipher hieroglyphics. So what did the Egyptian initiation system look like? This is, actually, one of the main themes of Antiquities of Freemasonry The topic is discussed throughout the text and treated in depth in Chapter 5 - On The Idolatrous Mysteries As Contrasted with Free-Masonry. Oliver discusses how the Egyptian mysteries were created by Thoth to "perpetuate a remembrance of the events which occurred at the universal Deluge, and to preserve the knowledge of a future state of rewards and punishments." However, due to their immense success that they were perpetuated throughout the world. This dissemination of the mysteries did not, however, happen with perfect fidelity. Oliver informed his reader that the number and content of the degrees varied from locale to locale such that the "former and latter degrees of the ancient idolatrous mysteries were inconsistent, and even positively contradicted each other" in contrast to the pure patriarchal Speculative Masonic tradition which were a "regular and progressive series; each superior degree strengthening and confirming the preceding, until we arrive at the perfect knowledge of truth: aptly compared to the steps of a ladder". Thus in their infancy the Spurious Masonic traditions would have looked more like the Speculative Masonic tradition with hieroglyphical meaning building step by step.

How many degrees were there in Spurious Masonry? Oliver noted that the "former and latter degrees of the ancient idolatrous mysteries were inconsistent, and even contradicted each other" and thus the number of degrees could have varied from area to area. However, Joseph Smith came to the conclusion that Egyptian hieroglyphs were to be translated in 5 degrees. Could this interpretation of 5 degrees have been been drawn from Antiquities of Freemasonry? In not, did New York Freemasonry provide a guide? We'll explore this in the next post.