NOM

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:34 am So what are the chances we will ever find out what IS true out of the whole crazy mess?

If the older brother was back in Idaho before the younger brother even left for his mission, then the whole story is bunk, none of it is true. It would be interesting to know the facts behind the real story that was embellished to the point that it becomes complete fiction. Makes you wonder what other miraculous stories the church may have embellished to the point of complete fiction, hmm the first vision perhaps?

LostMormon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:48 am Makes you wonder what other miraculous stories in the church may have been embellished to the point of complete fiction, hmm the first vision perhaps?

Probably all of them. That is the nature of stories told and re-told. They morph to fit the storyteller's agenda.

It's a start.

One down, withdrawal of 1,000 more fantastic fables to go. (at least)

This entire situation has turned into a massive dumpster fire. I stand all amazed...

LostMormon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:48 am

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:34 am So what are the chances we will ever find out what IS true out of the whole crazy mess?

If the older brother was back in Idaho before the younger brother even left for his mission, then the whole story is bunk, none of it is true. It would be interesting to know the facts behind the real story that was embellished to the point that it becomes complete fiction. Makes you wonder what other miraculous stories the church may have embellished to the point of complete fiction, hmm the first vision perhaps?

Right? Let's deconstruct it for a minute.

Biker bro is back before Mission bro goes on his mission; therefore:
Biker bro and Mission bro didn't meet on mission; therefore:
The Holy Ghost didn't prompt the Apostle GA to place Mission bro in California mission; therefore:
The Holy Ghost didn't prompt Mission Prez to place Mission bro in mission area to meet Biker bro; therefore:
Elder Holland couldn't convincingly tell this story without the Holy Ghost confirming it was true; therefore:
Either Elder Holland was not worthy (probably self flagellation) or the Holy Ghost failed to do his job.

The comments from members PRAISING Elder Holland for doing the "right thing" are comical.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:58 pm Right? Let's deconstruct it for a minute.

Biker bro is back before Mission bro goes on his mission; therefore:
Biker bro and Mission bro didn't meet on mission; therefore:
The Holy Ghost didn't prompt the Apostle GA to place Mission bro in California mission; therefore:
The Holy Ghost didn't prompt Mission Prez to place Mission bro in mission area to meet Biker bro; therefore:
Elder Holland couldn't convincingly tell this story without the Holy Ghost confirming it was true; therefore:
Either Elder Holland was not worthy (probably self flagellation) or the Holy Ghost failed to do his job.

Well according to Elder Holland the Holy Ghost was VERY busy.

Here's a direct quote from his speech:

“The Holy Ghost prompted those parents to keep praying, to keep believing, to keep trusting. … The Holy Ghost inspired that rebellious boy to come to himself like the prodigal he was and to head for California. … The Holy Ghost influenced that younger son to serve a mission and be willing to accept a call to Southern California. … The Holy Ghost inspired one of my brethren in the Twelve, who was on the assignment desk that Friday, to trust his impression and assign that young man for service not a great distance from his native-born state. The Holy Ghost inspired that mission president to assign that young missionary to that district and that member unit. The Holy Ghost led those missionaries to that street, that day, that hour, with big brother sitting on the porch waiting, and, with Doberman Pinschers notwithstanding, the Holy Ghost prompted those two elders to stop, talk and in spite of their fear, to go back and present their message. …

“And, through the elders, the Holy Ghost taught repentance and brought true conversion to one coming back into the fold.”

Or not....Oops

Wow! What a mess. For me this is a seriously big deal. JHR is one of the most popular apostles for his ability to get people to feel "the spirit" with his charismatic speaking style. I've always thought he was a very good speaker. No doubt the story he told had quite an impact on his audience and they felt spirit strongly testify the truthfulness of the church and it leaders. Turns out it was all hogwash!!! This ought to be a wake up call to every single member, THE SPIRIT IS NOT REAL. YOU CAN'T FIND TRUTH BY YOUR FEELINGS!!! Church leaders at all levels manipulate and fabricate stories to stir emotional responses and then call it the spirit. JRH was caught red handed!!! Every faith promoting story told over the pulpit needs to be called into question. All the little details he added to the story (all fabrications) to give it credibility is very telling. These guys can justify anything as long as it's promoting their cause. Alas, most members will brush this aside and faithfully (blindly) march down the straight and narrow. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Unendowed wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:30 am ... Every faith promoting story told over the pulpit needs to be called into question. ...

They also publish monthly magazines which are basically nothing more than faith-promoting-stories. And, the vast majority of there "teaching manuals" have lots and lots of faith-promoting-stories...

Literally everything the church does when it comes to "teaching" is to manipulate emotions to get people to "believe" and give the Corporation their time and money...

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:58 pm

LostMormon wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:48 am

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:34 am So what are the chances we will ever find out what IS true out of the whole crazy mess?

If the older brother was back in Idaho before the younger brother even left for his mission, then the whole story is bunk, none of it is true. It would be interesting to know the facts behind the real story that was embellished to the point that it becomes complete fiction. Makes you wonder what other miraculous stories the church may have embellished to the point of complete fiction, hmm the first vision perhaps?

Right? Let's deconstruct it for a minute.

Biker bro is back before Mission bro goes on his mission; therefore:
Biker bro and Mission bro didn't meet on mission; therefore:
The Holy Ghost didn't prompt the Apostle GA to place Mission bro in California mission; therefore:
The Holy Ghost didn't prompt Mission Prez to place Mission bro in mission area to meet Biker bro; therefore:
Elder Holland couldn't convincingly tell this story without the Holy Ghost confirming it was true; therefore:
Either Elder Holland was not worthy (probably self flagellation) or the Holy Ghost failed to do his job.

The comments from members PRAISING Elder Holland for doing the "right thing" are comical.

That is what the article is telling us we should be doing right? It's not a screw up, it's praiseworthy. Either way, the dude comes up smelling like roses.

LostMormon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:31 am That is what the article is telling us we should be doing right? It's not a screw up, it's praiseworthy. Either way, the dude comes up smelling like roses.

I still get the sense that we are obligated to only smell the roses and ignore anything that smells fishy. Pointing out the logical inconsistencies and obvious conclusions about the "influence of the Holy Spirit" is viewed as disengenuous after this heart felt retraction.

I think Elder Holland went down a wrong road when he decided to tell this story.

I'd bet 100 points the church was already working on a video version of this story to be used in youth lessons.

Sounds like the family got sick of hearing their story get utilized in such a blatantly false manner and took the church to task for it. Otherwise we would never see a retraction. Other false fables will continue to promulgate unopposed.

I would love to have a recording of those conversations with between the family and Brother Holland. When he speaks of issuing a retraction as a courtesy to the family I can't help but wonder if it was more of an ultimatum: either you retract it or we will go to the press and retract it for you. Voluntary retraction would be the only potentially face-saving option. I really hope someone close to this story shows up in an interview with Dehlin or someone, although I wouldn't be surprised if the retraction didn't pivot on some sort of non-disclosure document. That's how jaded I have become.

The great value of this story is that it is a perfect example of how miraculous stories become miraculous, even when they spawn from mundane events. It may very well be that there is no bad guy in this story at all, just a series of people embellishing just a little bit to make the story more compelling because they sincerely want to inspire others. On the other hand it lifts the skirt of the corporate insincerity in an environment that inspires such embellishing. There are many miraculous stories in our culture that have been demonstrated to be untrue (e.g. milk strippings, Brigham Young > Joseph Smith transformation...), yet they are knowingly perpetuated by institution and its leaders.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:12 pm
The great value of this story is that it is a perfect example of how miraculous stories become miraculous, even when they spawn from mundane events. It may very well be that there is no bad guy in this story at all, just a series of people embellishing just a little bit to make the story more compelling because they sincerely want to inspire others. On the other hand it lifts the skirt of the corporate insincerity in an environment that inspires such embellishing. There are many miraculous stories in our culture that have been demonstrated to be untrue (e.g. milk strippings, Brigham Young > Joseph Smith transformation...), yet they are knowingly perpetuated by institution and its leaders.

You said it better than I could have. I think the church has its roots in embellishing mundane things clear from the very beginning. It started as an embellishment, why should it have all the sudden become honest at some point?

Re-listened to the podcast last night and another detail jumped out at me.

I have gone on record with my belief that this is an old story, as manifest primarily from the pulling of the Hell's Angels boogeyman out of the closet for public trembling by an aging LDS generation.

And I also recognized that, in an effort to make the retraction sound as good as possible, an additional detail was thrown in--not only that the older brother had left the home and then come back (and sealed in the temple at some point); and that the younger brother did actually go on a mission . . .

. . . but also that the older brother had a son who went on a mission!

How is this supposed to fit into the overall scenario?

According to one third-hand account of the story, the older brother left home when he was 14.

When did he have this child who served a mission? While he was on the road? After he got back to Idaho? Before he was sealed in the temple or after?

This one detail, though possible to answer by means of a somewhat labyrinthine theory, raises a number of additional questions regarding the truthfulness of this account.