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Re: Question for the group about when to leave

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:39 pm
by Rob4Hope
Newme wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:32 pm Maybe considering what someone has power over is important.
True that rare conditions like thyroid problems can contribute to weight gain.
Still, it seems like often obesity comes down to eating too much & not exercising enough. Generally, people who are healthy tend to have other good qualities like being happier, able to do more fun & exciting things (to keep the spark alive), maintain good self control and discipline. Lately, I've been considering my body as a temple - which deserves to be treated well with diet, exercise, sleep, etc. Junk food is tempting though. And I know people who are addicted to it to the point where it is killing them. (I suppose many since heart disease is #1 killer in US.) Besides abuse & adultery, addiction can be a credible reason for divorce.

I don't think the weight issue was meant to be offensive, though it could easily be taken that way. His example of hygiene is similar. If someone shows discipline to regularly brush & floss, bathe & shower, they're more pleasant to be around than if they didn't, and it reflects good self-esteem, discipline etc.
You are correct the comment about obesity was not meant to be offensive. I mentioned it because I have my own inherited physical struggles. I have to be careful...RALLY careful because of a few things. So, I've spent some time educating myself.

In the midst of that education, I've learned some of the studies done regarding obesity, heart disease, and how North America-which at one time was one of the most healthy countries in the world--has seriously SERIOUSLY slipped. The fattest people in the entire world are in North America--Mississippi if I recall correctly, but that is no justification. Utah has a massive anti-depressant medicated population, lots of Ritilin here, as well as heart-attack and cancer. Now you can debate the causes of this--say its the LDS church, the pressure of family life from large families...LGBT issues...whatever. But I submit the primary cause is Utahn's, like the rest of the United States, generally eat CRAP FOOD all the time: grease, sugar, processed meat, massive dairy. I read something the other day--we are the only species in this world that drinks other's species milk. Is that natural?...is that normal?...don't know. It certainly is interesting.

People generally have control over what passes their lips and goes into their stomachs. So, really...is this something that just can't be controlled?

Inside a marriage, you have control over certain things. Weight gain is one that does cause issues: health issues, attractiveness issues, energy issues, activity issues, sleep issues (apnea is often brought on by large weight gain), etc. It can hurt a relationship because someone in the relationship is declining in an area that, IMHO, is more controllable than often admitted.

But,...let me pull away from the hotness of that issue, cuz its something many struggle with,...and those struggles have heartstrings that are pulled horribly.

There is an attitude I've seen, and it drives me crazy. That attitude is summed up with something like this: "Why can't my spouse just love me the way I am?" This fits right into the "Jesus love" issues above,...because "charity suffereth long, is kind, envieth not..." etc.

That line between what is unconditional,...and what is conditional love is in there. Everyone who has gone through a divorce has hit that line somewhere in there. Some here have said addiction, adultry & abuse cross that line, triggering a compelling reason to consider terminating the marriage.

What constitute compelling reasons?...specifics anyone besides those mentioned (or more specifically what is mentiioned)?

Re: Question for the group about when to leave

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:32 am
by shadow
Rob4Hope wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:39 pm There is an attitude I've seen, and it drives me crazy. That attitude is summed up with something like this: "Why can't my spouse just love me the way I am?" This fits right into the "Jesus love" issues above,...because "charity suffereth long, is kind, envieth not..." etc.

That line between what is unconditional,...and what is conditional love is in there. Everyone who has gone through a divorce has hit that line somewhere in there. Some here have said addiction, adultry & abuse cross that line, triggering a compelling reason to consider terminating the marriage.

What constitute compelling reasons?...specifics anyone besides those mentioned (or more specifically what is mentiioned)?
Do we expect too much from our TBM spouses when dealing with our changing belief? I've seen on these boards multiple times this scripture:
1 Corinthians 7:14 wrote:For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Paul's idea on marriage are definitely extreme in that chapter. He does, however, present non-believers with a pretty strong weapon for enforcing the attitude you describe, R4H. Based on this thread, it's probably not a very effective tool for actual marital happiness.
1 Corinthians 7:9-16 wrote:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Re: Question for the group about when to leave

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:01 pm
by FiveFingerMnemonic
shadow wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:32 am
Rob4Hope wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:39 pm There is an attitude I've seen, and it drives me crazy. That attitude is summed up with something like this: "Why can't my spouse just love me the way I am?" This fits right into the "Jesus love" issues above,...because "charity suffereth long, is kind, envieth not..." etc.

That line between what is unconditional,...and what is conditional love is in there. Everyone who has gone through a divorce has hit that line somewhere in there. Some here have said addiction, adultry & abuse cross that line, triggering a compelling reason to consider terminating the marriage.

What constitute compelling reasons?...specifics anyone besides those mentioned (or more specifically what is mentiioned)?
Do we expect too much from our TBM spouses when dealing with our changing belief? I've seen on these boards multiple times this scripture:
1 Corinthians 7:14 wrote:For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Paul's idea on marriage are definitely extreme in that chapter. He does, however, present non-believers with a pretty strong weapon for enforcing the attitude you describe, R4H. Based on this thread, it's probably not a very effective tool for actual marital happiness.
1 Corinthians 7:9-16 wrote:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
If you read the chapter headings for these scriptures you find the church interpreting Paul's comments on marriage as being only to missionaries. How convenient.

Re: Question for the group about when to leave

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:49 pm
by Rob4Hope
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:01 pm If you read the chapter headings for these scriptures you find the church interpreting Paul's comments on marriage as being only to missionaries. How convenient.
OK....so, this is interesting because my understand is Bruce McClonkie wrote those.

OK...old thread and not wanting to regurgitate this again...but a direct comment: The last time I have record of (and I could research this more directly, I know) of hearing a "prophet" speak on sexuality was Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee, and their comments on celibacy as the ONLY acceptable form of Birth Control. IN true form, the church has avoided the "disavowing" of those statements, still prints them, but has written other things obtusely that say sex is also for connection and leaders are NOT to get into the bedrooms of the saints.

This is an example that lives on because it influences the "leadership roulette" wheel. So FFM, when you mentioned this (which I haven't noticed cuz I don't care much now about LDS scriptures), why am I not surprised? Why, knowing Bruce McClonkie wrote those, does it not surprise me?

Re: Question for the group about when to leave

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:32 pm
by Newme
Rob4Hope (& anyone else interested),
The questions you ask are loaded & answers are not black & white.
What does one really owe one's spouse in marriage - especially in lds marriages?
How much sacrifice is morally obligated - & when does it become too much?
When is it ok, & when is it not ok, to ask for & get a divorce?
What is ok/moral/good? What isn't?
Probably each person could give various valid answers.

I'm kindof wrestling with these questions too - so I'll brainstorm.
First off, when kids are involved, the stakes are higher & I think responsibility is too.

It was mentioned before but I feel the need to repeat it: many women want to be sexually intimate AFTER they feel emotionally intimate. I realize that many men feel intimate after sex. Yet, someone's gotta start, with nothing but hope. IMO, The nature of building relationships is relating & emotional intimacy first & then sex. It's understandable considering possibility of pregnancy & how it affects women much more than men. One other important consideration: about 95% of men orgasm during sex. For women, it's about 50-80%.

Do men deserve sex? Do women deserve emotional intimacy?
How healthy is it for them to go without? Is the sacrifice worth it in other ways?

It's true that interfaith marriage (esp for us NOMs) can be especially challenging sexually. But, it seems that this emotional intimacy need for women is more universal. What if you divorced repeatedly, only to be met with similar sexual frustration each time?

Then again, if you are no longer attracted to your spouse - and have no desire for any relationship - & they seem similarly minded - if there is no relating, there is no relat-ionship. I honor marriage especially when kids are involved. But the relationship is what it is. A paper "blueprint of intent" or sealing doesn't change reality.

Ideally, marriage is having a partner/mate to grow through life together. Ideally, we each are continually growing but if a couple grows in separate ways - relating can be less, & there may come a time when there isn't much left to the relationship. I think it's important to honestly ask ourselves what we want & to consider how realistic it is, especially considering the extremely invasive societial worship of the god of romance - hymns playing on radio, movies, etc. There's this false notion that one special person could fulfill you in every way. Personally, I realize some flaws I need to work on or else if/when I divorce, I'd just attract similar issues.

Have you discussed these 3 main concerns you have with your wife?
If so, how did it go? If not, why not?