NOM

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:01 pm**

Bloodhound98 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:08 pm ... if the BoM is fraudulent then perhaps so was my 36 years of my life. That is why it's so impossible at my current stage to 100% accept the fraudulent theory. I want to desperately believe some part of it is divine/sacred/holy/inspired.

I stood on the pulpit many times and defended the BOM. When the DNA evidence started to gain traction I still defended it...then the COB removed that paragraph that said that native Americans were decedents of the people in the BOM. It was like the COB admitted guilt or caved under the evidence. That was the heaviest item on my shelf, the loosest thread. There were so many other threads that came lose and the whole Jenga pile came down very quickly.

I too spent most of my mortal years (over 40) paying the COB and drinking it's Koolaid. I've tried very hard not to be bitter about it. I'm envious of the younger generations getting out of the church and wish I had when I was younger. But, it is what it is and I'm just glad I did get out and I've never regretted it!

You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free! But, remember to be patient, study and think about your transition. Another thing I'd suggest is to run an experiment (prove me now herewith); try living your life for a few months as if there were no angel and devil on your shoulder. Still go to church but just observe it from the POV that it's all made up BS. Try not paying tithing. Have a beer or something off the path, nothing too extreme. Mostly just change your perspective for a while and live guilt free. Stop attributing good or bad things in your life to anything like being blessed or cursed, just live and attribute those things to life. This will help you see what life would be like. If you are married, be a better spouse, not because it's your obligation, but because it's just the right thing to do.

Now, if you want to continue down the rabbit hole, I'd suggest Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins".
https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mo ... 1560851570
He's a former church historian, now resigned from the church because they threatened him with excom. Grant maintains a relationship with Christ and I've never known him to be insincere or bitter. It's either that or just go and read the CES letter and get to know Jeremy Runnels. Might be easier just to pull the bandaid off your tortured mind and get it over with rather than continue the crazy mental gymnastics to keep making it make sense somehow; at the end of the day it just doesn't. Good luck and NOMspeed ahead!

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:06 am**

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:01 pm Now, if you want to continue down the rabbit hole, I'd suggest Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins".
https://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mo ... 1560851570
He's a former church historian, now resigned from the church because they threatened him with excom. Grant maintains a relationship with Christ and I've never known him to be insincere or bitter. It's either that or just go and read the CES letter and get to know Jeremy Runnels. Might be easier just to pull the bandaid off your tortured mind and get it over with rather than continue the crazy mental gymnastics to keep making it make sense somehow; at the end of the day it just doesn't. Good luck and NOMspeed ahead!

I have done alot of reading. I know about the CES letter and Grant Palmer. I just had the BoM as the last shred of hope that maybe it was at least semi-inspirational. It would appear that that notion is about as silly as Joseph not marrying my wife if he had a chance.

I like how everyone talks about patience in this journey. Patience does not run in my blood, but logic does. It's my version of "bargaining" through the grieving process. "Okay so maybe it's all false but maybe this part might be slightly true??" I'm quickly coming to Acceptance and feel more at peace with it then ever. I'm still a little scared where this will all take me, but I know what I know!
The most fascinating part of this journey has been the non-guilty feelings I've had. I expected to feel shame and guilt when reading the CES Letter. I thought I would feel guilty telling my wife/dad/mom/brother but I haven't at all. My wife told me I was addicted to this quest. She was right but unlike alcohol/porn/drugs there is no hangover or guilt that accompany those sins just mentioned.
I appreciate all of you who have chimed in. I think I can finally close the door on this chapter of my quest.
Thank you!

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:13 am**

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:01 pmtry living your life for a few months as if there were no angel and devil on your shoulder.

My life got so much better when I realized that I wasn't just the rope in a tug of war between invisible beings. Once you shed that bit of indoctrination the universe becomes a very different place. Once you see that the LDS church is just one of many such organizations, and that it has both good and bad components, none of which have magical beings pulling the levers, it gives you a new frame of reference for understanding the behaviors of people both inside and outside of the institution.

Another big moment for me was the realization that the choice of either staying in the boat or giving myself over to the storm is a false dichotomy. Once I had taken that big step, and realized I was standing in calm knee-deep water, I saw that there was no storm, just a bunch of frightened people still on the boat, jumping up and down and creating the illusion of a storm.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:51 am**

Just chiming in with my $.02

The BoM is not an evil book. While it's not divine as we were taught our entire lives, that doesn't make it bad.

Of course, there are some problematic teachings (cutting off heads, dark skin, etc). However, the intent of the book was to attract people to follow Jesus and JS. Joseph wrote it to try and produce a book that would help him gain notoriety as a religious leader. It was written to be about believing and following Jesus. Many primary messages are belief, faith, hope, love, etc.

So let's not treat for anything different than what it is. A (poor) attempt to tell a story about a mythical people following Jesus in order for a start-up farm boy turned preacher to gain some attention.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:05 am**

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said but I would like to point out a couple of things.

1. A number of people were having success at the time of Joseph writing romantic/religious novels and marketing them to the public. You will recall the attempt by Solomon Spalding. Hence Joseph's early attempt to sell the BoM copyright in Canada and the statement attributed to Martin Harris by his wife, that he would make money from the BoM proposition if she would give it time. I think he saw it as an investment as did Joseph.

2. There is a statement/definition familiar to many Mormons: "I teach the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture." The BoM is a sad, naïve attempt to simplify the sometimes perplexing scripture of the Bible. It definitely has a few inspiring passages that I think one could find in any well thought out Christian talk. Take the work of C. S. Lewis as an example; great and true principles taught using a non-historical setting. But should the BoM be considered "evil"?

According to the Mormons' own definition stated above they would be forced to look at it that way. I actually think that anything that leads men to Christ is useful to the Lord, but that doesn't mean he will excuse the motives of those who produce such works. And I will leave that judgment to Him.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:39 am**

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:05 amHence Joseph's early attempt to sell the BoM copyright in Canada

I have come to the conclusion that Joseph did this to find a way to finance the printing of the book while cutting Martin Harris out of the deal. Harris had lost the first 116 pages, which was a very disturbing setback for Joseph. Having failed to get money from Canada, Jospeh doubled down on the Harris option and dictated D&C section 19 where God admits to Harris that he lies about certain doctrine that Harris finds objectionable, to set him at ease, and then commands him to fork over the cash at the risk of being destroyed. Does this sound like the will of God or more like that of a man who needs capital investment to get on with his kingdom building?

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:54 pm**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:13 am Another big moment for me was the realization that the choice of either staying in the boat or giving myself over to the storm is a false dichotomy. Once I had taken that big step, and realized I was standing in calm knee-deep water, I saw that there was no storm, just a bunch of frightened people still on the boat, jumping up and down and creating the illusion of a storm.

I have always referenced it to my head in the sand and I had to stay there because we were in the Sahara Desert in the middle of a windstorm. As it turns out I am on a beach that is beautiful and has a lot more to offer me. I can walk around and be free as opposed to stuck in the sand. That's my idea of eternal progression!

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:11 pm**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:39 am
Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:05 amHence Joseph's early attempt to sell the BoM copyright in Canada
I have come to the conclusion that Joseph did this to find a way to finance the printing of the book while cutting Martin Harris out of the deal. Harris had lost the first 116 pages, which was a very disturbing setback for Joseph. Having failed to get money from Canada, Jospeh doubled down on the Harris option and dictated D&C section 19 where God admits to Harris that he lies about certain doctrine that Harris finds objectionable, to set him at ease, and then commands him to fork over the cash at the risk of being destroyed. Does this sound like the will of God or more like that of a man who needs capital investment to get on with his kingdom building?

Interesting take on the attempted sale but if Joseph hadn't retained copyright ownership wouldn't that have put him in a weak position as to the control of his new revelation? I'd love to have asked Oliver (who had been promised by revelation that he would find a buyer/publisher) what the reasoning was behind the sale. It just doesn't seem to me that they valued the BoM as holy scripture if they were willing to sell it.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:12 pm**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:13 am Another big moment for me was the realization that the choice of either staying in the boat or giving myself over to the storm is a false dichotomy. Once I had taken that big step, and realized I was standing in calm knee-deep water, I saw that there was no storm, just a bunch of frightened people still on the boat, jumping up and down and creating the illusion of a storm.

" You guys have fun on 'the boat'. I"m gonna go do land stuff. "

(I saw a comic depicting something like this at some point. Of course I can't find it right now...)

EDIT: Found it!

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:00 pm**

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:05 am I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said but I would like to point out a couple of things.

1. A number of people were having success at the time of Joseph writing romantic/religious novels and marketing them to the public. You will recall the attempt by Solomon Spalding. Hence Joseph's early attempt to sell the BoM copyright in Canada and the statement attributed to Martin Harris by his wife, that he would make money from the BoM proposition if she would give it time. I think he saw it as an investment as did Joseph.

2. There is a statement/definition familiar to many Mormons: "I teach the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture." The BoM is a sad, naïve attempt to simplify the sometimes perplexing scripture of the Bible. It definitely has a few inspiring passages that I think one could find in any well thought out Christian talk. Take the work of C. S. Lewis as an example; great and true principles taught using a non-historical setting. But should the BoM be considered "evil"?

According to the Mormons' own definition stated above they would be forced to look at it that way. I actually think that anything that leads men to Christ is useful to the Lord, but that doesn't mean he will excuse the motives of those who produce such works. And I will leave that judgment to Him.

You're totally fine. Even if Joseph saw it as an investment (which I concur), it doesn't take away from the basic goal - write a book about Jesus. JS just was looking for an angle and writing a book fit the bill at the time.

Part of the issue with forcing people to see the BoM as evil since it's "Philosophies of men, mingled with scripture" is we start to focus on the unintended consequences. We're all human and make mistakes. What we do today we later smack our forehead tomorrow. For me, just taking the BoM as good attempt to talk about Jesus and nothing more is what speaks peace to my heart. They did the best they could.

In my opinion, JS started as a Pious Fraud, and it progressively got worse as time progressed.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:06 pm**

The Books of Mormon, Moses, and Abraham are essentially Bible fan-fiction. The Doctrine and Covenants are rules by which this Bible fan club is to be run.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:43 pm**

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:11 pmInteresting take on the attempted sale but if Joseph hadn't retained copyright ownership wouldn't that have put him in a weak position as to the control of his new revelation?

I don't know what the copyright laws were like at the time (or today for that matter) but I assumed that Joseph might have thought he could sell a Canada-only copyright to raise money for a US printing for which he still retained the local copyright. Otherwise why go to Canada for it? Just speculation on my part.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:37 pm**

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:00 pm
Part of the issue with forcing people to see the BoM as evil since it's "Philosophies of men, mingled with scripture" is we start to focus on the unintended consequences. We're all human and make mistakes. What we do today we later smack our forehead tomorrow. For me, just taking the BoM as good attempt to talk about Jesus and nothing more is what speaks peace to my heart. They did the best they could.

In my opinion, JS started as a Pious Fraud, and it progressively got worse as time progressed.

For your perusal, something I ran across this evening.

“If false, [the Book of Mormon] is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laden impositions ever palmed upon the world; calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the Word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth, until they are plunged, together with their families, into hopeless despair.”
—[Apostle] Orson Pratt’s Works, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, Liverpool, 1851

Posted: **Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:22 am**

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:37 pm For your perusal, something I ran across this evening.

“If false, [the Book of Mormon] is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laden impositions ever palmed upon the world; calculated to deceive and ruin millions who will sincerely receive it as the Word of God, and will suppose themselves securely built upon the rock of truth, until they are plunged, together with their families, into hopeless despair.”
—[Apostle] Orson Pratt’s Works, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, Liverpool, 1851

For a minute there I thought you were quoting Gordon B. Hinckley!

I wondered if his false dichotomoy was inspired from some other source...

fh451

Posted: **Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:14 pm**

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:12 pm" You guys have fun on 'the boat'. I"m gonna go do land stuff. "

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:41 am**

Thank you all! I'm on the same journey as my buddy bloodhound98 and I appreciate all of the hard work and things that you've shared so that I can hang out on land as well.

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:57 am**

Bloodhound,
There is a fresh wound in my journey, the 3 Witnesses, and i think it relates to your question. In the recently secret-recorded interview on MS podcast, the historian easily dismissed the 3 Witnesses as merely a "visionary" experience. Now, I've read that before but it struck me how his manner was so easy, as if we had all believed that all long. I don't know about you, but I swear we've always been taught that they were Witnesses in the traditional sense of the word. After all, they signed a document saying they saw the plates and that document is supposed to prove the existence of the plates, not that they had some nice spiritual moment, right?

Also, in D&C 17 God Himself directs them to see the plates with their eyes. It also says they will see them as Joseph saw them, and Joseph made a big deal out of handling them, hiding them, getting a box to hide them in, hiding them in the hearth, etc... JS certainly said he saw and handled the plates and that they were a physical object.

Which take me back to Historian Mr. Grow, who waives it off like no big deal. Well, sorry, but not so fast.

If the 3 Witnesses are now only a visionary experience, then I can conclude that it was a sham from the beginning. The D&C Section in the voice of God, the written statement intended to prove the existence of the plates - it's just too much to blow off as though we have always taught it (pure gaslighting) or that we misunderstood all along (pure BS).

Bottom line: The BoM, including the Witnesses, were the thing that I really clung to at the end of my belief in the church. I think we have clear evidence now that it was a fraud from Day 1. You can argue about the intentions of the people and if the book still teaches about Jesus, but it's not historical and the plates never existed. Peace.

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:25 pm**

Yobispo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:57 am In the recently secret-recorded interview on MS podcast.../quote]

Yobisbo, I missed that one. Can you help a brother out with a link or episode number?

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:28 pm**

Hagoth,
This one took on a life of it's own. John did a live-feed on Friday, uploaded it as a podcast and then took it down. That all happened over the course of about 3 days. Lots of drama. You can find the whole recording on the Mormon Leaks site, of course. https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?t ... _Growe.mp3

This fellow Trevor was an AP in the mission field, got close to his MP who is now a GA. Trevor went down the rabbit hole like many of us, and his MP (now a 70) set up a meeting with himself and church historian Matt Grow. Trevor recorded the whole meeting in secret. The recording above has the entire 4-part Mormon Stories interview which includes an interview with Trevor and his story, then the recording, then a smackdown with 2 Infants, John D and Lindsay Hansen Park.

I suggest getting the kids down, opening up a bottle of wine and get comfy for a 4-hour train wreck that you won't be able to take your ears off of.

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:57 pm**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:43 pm
Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:11 pmInteresting take on the attempted sale but if Joseph hadn't retained copyright ownership wouldn't that have put him in a weak position as to the control of his new revelation?
I don't know what the copyright laws were like at the time (or today for that matter) but I assumed that Joseph might have thought he could sell a Canada-only copyright to raise money for a US printing for which he still retained the local copyright. Otherwise why go to Canada for it? Just speculation on my part.

Rare have been the times in my life where having advanced degrees in Canadian cultural history have benefitted ANYONE, including me, especially from a monetary point of view. This is one of those rare occasions.

In the 19th century, British copyright laws in then British North America were notoriously lax. Canadian authors were routinely bilked out of hundreds of dollars in sales by publishing their works in the United States and elsewhere; the most famous case was William Kirby's The Golden Dog, which was published in both the UK and the US and Kirby never saw a cent. In that case, Hagoth, your analysis is spot on. Joseph could have his cake and eat it too; get some money out of a Canadian copyright and get the book into print there, and do the same in the US. Too bad Canadian booksellers/printers wanted nothing to do with it.

NOM

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