NOM

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 4:38 pm**

Biden wears a mask. Trump doesn't. How dare anyone on either side cross that boundary. Torches and pitchforks everybody!

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 6:35 pm**

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 4:05 pm
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:04 pmHuman stupidity has no bounds.
This is what's driving me nuts more than anything at the moment methinks.

We humans are fighting an invisible enemy that's killing us; You'd think we could figure out a way to come together as humanity with a common goal.

But we politicize everything and blame "everyone else" for everything, etc. etc.

Yep, we're idiots.

I think in this case, politicizing is understandable. We tend to fall back on it when there's not a clearly optimal path, or when a choice comes down to axiomatic beliefs or moral values.

Economy or health? Both! They're interdependent. Now given that, what's the best public policy? Even if we can agree on what "best" means, there are so, so many unknowns, which most people fail to recognize as unknowns. So we'll shout our opinions as fact and call each other horrible names and mean it, and somehow by everyone pulling as hard as they can in the direction they want to go, we'll lumber on and hopefully not fall off a cliff together.

FWIW, I'm sick of it, too. But the basic fact is that we are mostly blind but still have to act, and that means politics. Ugh.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 7:14 pm**

Some good news. Don't want to chase down the articles.

Recent research suggests that recovered Covid-19 patients have antibodies for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein as well as a few other surface proteins. Further, it appears that having recovered from infections from a related coronavirus confers partial immunity. (Viruses tend to share features. The spike protein in particular is pretty common.) It's not known how long immunity lasts, but it must be at least a few months.

There is now 1 competed phase 1 clinical trial for a vaccine. Results suggest it's safe, meaning it can go on to phase 2 and 3 to determine its effectiveness. The cohort was observed to have an increased immune response to SARS-CoV-2, which is promising.

Vaccine trials usually fail at some phase, though. Fortunately, there are 7 more phase 1 trials ongoing, and over 100 more are planned. We've never done anything like this before. It's frankly amazing.

Vaccine design nowadays is very cool, by the way. They can take a working vaccine for another virus and edit its genetic code to make it look like SARS-CoV-2. For example, they might swap in its spike protein so the immune system can learn to recognize it.

There's also now an answer to 1) why children have an easier time with this virus, and 2) how it flies under the radar for 1-2 weeks after initial infection. We have two immune responses: a fast, nonspecific response, and a slow, targeted response. Most viruses suppress both responses somewhat. SARS-CoV-2 seems to suppress the fast, nonspecific response like crazy, but promote the slow, targeted response. (It's weird!) Children's nonspecific immune response tends to be stronger than adults', so the virus's suppression of it harms them less. The promotion of the targeted response seems to be what causes the "cytokine storm" in the later stages of Covid-19 that kills people.

The good news here is that there are drugs that can promote the nonspecific response and other drugs that can suppress the targeted one. They're all going into trials for treating Covid-19.

Vitamin D seems to be important. In places where the death rate is high, Vitamin D deficiency is also high, even when statistically controlling for other factors. Take your vitamin pills!

This all doesn't mean that business as usual is safe, of course. There's still a lot we don't know, no proven vaccine, and no known way to get 75% of everyone immune (or immune enough) for herd immunity.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 7:22 pm**

Reuben wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 7:14 pm Some good news. Don't want to chase down the articles.

Recent research suggests that recovered Covid-19 patients have antibodies for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein as well as a few other surface proteins. Further, it appears that having recovered from infections from a related coronavirus confers partial immunity. (Viruses tend to share features. The spike protein in particular is pretty common.) It's not known how long immunity lasts, but it must be at least a few months.

There is now 1 competed phase 1 clinical trial for a vaccine. Results suggest it's safe, meaning it can go on to phase 2 and 3 to determine its effectiveness. The cohort was observed to have an increased immune response to SARS-CoV-2, which is promising.

Vaccine trials usually fail at some phase, though. Fortunately, there are 7 more phase 1 trials ongoing, and over 100 more are planned. We've never done anything like this before. It's frankly amazing.

Vaccine design nowadays is very cool, by the way. They can take a working vaccine for another virus and edit its genetic code to make it look like SARS-CoV-2. For example, they might swap in its spike protein so the immune system can learn to recognize it.

There's also now an answer to 1) why children have an easier time with this virus, and 2) how it flies under the radar for 1-2 weeks after initial infection. We have two immune responses: a fast, nonspecific response, and a slow, targeted response. Most viruses suppress both responses somewhat. SARS-CoV-2 seems to suppress the fast, nonspecific response like crazy, but promote the slow, targeted response. (It's weird!) Children's nonspecific immune response tends to be stronger than adults', so the virus's suppression of it harms them less. The promotion of the targeted response seems to be what causes the "cytokine storm" in the later stages of Covid-19 that kills people.

The good news here is that there are drugs that can promote the nonspecific response and other drugs that can suppress the targeted one. They're all going into trials for treating Covid-19.

Vitamin D seems to be important. In places where the death rate is high, Vitamin D deficiency is also high, even when statistically controlling for other factors. Take your vitamin pills!

This all doesn't mean that business as usual is safe, of course. There's still a lot we don't know, no proven vaccine, and no known way to get 75% of everyone immune (or immune enough) for herd immunity.

This is very exciting news, especially the part about the discoveries about the immune response. Fascinating.

Got a slight sunburn, yesterday, so vitamin D stores should be good for a day or two.

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2020 7:22 pm**

Reuben wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 7:14 pm Vitamin D seems to be important. In places where the death rate is high, Vitamin D deficiency is also high, even when statistically controlling for other factors. Take your vitamin pills!

See?! He IS a prophet! I can't wait for church services to start again.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 1:16 am**

Reuben wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 7:14 pm Vitamin D seems to be important. In places where the death rate is high, Vitamin D deficiency is also high, even when statistically controlling for other factors. Take your vitamin pills!

Besides Vitamin D added to milk, have some fatty tuna and you can supplement your body's stores of both Vitamin D and mercury. As health-conscious Tonto would ask, "What's up, Keto Wasabi?"

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 7:14 am**

Reuben wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:35 pmFWIW, I'm sick of it, too. But the basic fact is that we are mostly blind but still have to act, and that means politics. Ugh.

Well, as you mention in your following post, there is actually quite a bit of science that we can use to attempt to fight our way through the blindness.

Yet name-calling, politicizing, and killing each other over wearing a piece of cloth over our faces is more important.

Yep, humans are still idiots. (I'm one of those idiots.)

Edit: And since we've been reporting statistics in this thread, us good ol' USA idiots have now hit 100,000 deaths from COVID-19 in our country (or will cross the 100,000 number in the next few moments, depending on which website you enjoy getting your damage report from.)

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 7:50 am**

I don't think anyone knows enough about the situation to get on a dogmatic high horse and judge others unless they know for sure they are infected and purposely running around spreading it. Dunning Kruger is in full effect. If you think you know a little about infectious disease from articles and media, chances are you will convince yourself that you know better than "the other ignorants" out there no matter which end of the spectrum you fall on.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2020 2:45 pm**

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:14 am
Reuben wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 6:35 pmFWIW, I'm sick of it, too. But the basic fact is that we are mostly blind but still have to act, and that means politics. Ugh.
Well, as you mention in your following post, there is actually quite a bit of science that we can use to attempt to fight our way through the blindness.

Yet name-calling, politicizing, and killing each other over wearing a piece of cloth over our faces is more important.

Yep, humans are still idiots. (I'm one of those idiots.)

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:50 am I don't think anyone knows enough about the situation to get on a dogmatic high horse and judge others unless they know for sure they are infected and purposely running around spreading it. Dunning Kruger is in full effect. If you think you know a little about infectious disease from articles and media, chances are you will convince yourself that you know better than "the other ignorants" out there no matter which end of the spectrum you fall on.

I'm going to do something completely unexpected by agreeing with both of you.

I think the basic problem is fear. The way it changes our cognition to make us certain of what we're afraid of is generally maladaptive now.

Possible tiger in the bushes? YES, I very much do want every mental resource directed toward keeping me safe, and if that means I KNOW there's a tiger in there even if there isn't one, so be it.

Somebody endorsing policies or ideals that I think are probably bad and wrong? NO, I do not want to KNOW that they'll ruin everything and kill us all. But I do anyway, and it sucks.

Politics doesn't actually put me in that frame of mind, but church bullshit does, so I totally get it.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 6:35 am**

Reuben wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 2:45 pmI'm going to do something completely unexpected by agreeing with both of you.
...

I see what you did there.

You agree with "this" part, right?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:14 am(I'm one of those idiots.)

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 10:39 am**

I kind of think wearing a mask is a sign of caring about other people. Maybe wearing it won't slow the spread of the disease - but if there's a chance it will, hey, I'll wear a mask in public, especially if anyone around me has any concern it will help keep their grandma or five-year old child with cancer from getting it. Why wouldn't I do something that might help keep someone safe?

Do I judge people who don't wear masks in public? Honestly, yeah, a little bit. They don't know not wearing a mask is safe, any more than I know wearing one with slow the spread of COVID. We really don't know. But I do know this - when I wear a mask in public, nobody has to feel like I don't care about their health.

Let's be honest - for some people not wearing a mask is their way of giving everyone else the finger. And for those who honestly don't believe it makes a difference - isn't it worth it anyway to help those with immune compromised loved ones feel like everyone else cares? Perception goes a long way.

Until I see solid evidence it doesn't help, I am wearing one in public out of respect and consideration for everyone around me.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 3:23 pm**

A few years ago, I hosted a man who was receiving chemotherapy. He wore a mask when he was out in public. I figure he wouldn't have been instructed to wear a mask if it offered no protection whatsoever. I think many of the people who object to masks have a binary view of them. They are 100% foolproof, so what's the point? Well, that depends on your definition of "fool", these days.

I know of some people who get their feelings hurt when someone wears a mask around them. I guess they feel like a pariah or something.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2020 10:10 pm**

Everyone should be thankful their surgeon wears a mask, although that might not stop Trump from replacing that surgeon with someone who was not so meticulous.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 6:31 am**

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 10:39 am I kind of think wearing a mask is a sign of caring about other people. Maybe wearing it won't slow the spread of the disease - but if there's a chance it will, hey, I'll wear a mask in public, especially if anyone around me has any concern it will help keep their grandma or five-year old child with cancer from getting it. Why wouldn't I do something that might help keep someone safe?

Do I judge people who don't wear masks in public? Honestly, yeah, a little bit. They don't know not wearing a mask is safe, any more than I know wearing one with slow the spread of COVID. We really don't know. But I do know this - when I wear a mask in public, nobody has to feel like I don't care about their health.

Let's be honest - for some people not wearing a mask is their way of giving everyone else the finger. And for those who honestly don't believe it makes a difference - isn't it worth it anyway to help those with immune compromised loved ones feel like everyone else cares? Perception goes a long way.

Until I see solid evidence it doesn't help, I am wearing one in public out of respect and consideration for everyone around me.

I'm with NBI 100%

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 9:54 am**

I will be honest. I don't wear a mask, and other than working from home, I have done nothing special during this whole thing. Partly this is the fact that the area I live in is smaller. We don't have huge crowds, and we haven't had too many cases. I understand those that do wear a mask, and there are some that do. Overall I would say maybe 25% do wear a mask, unless you are at Costco, where they are required. But being there last night, the workers had their masks pulled down, so what was the point.

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 7:03 pm**

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:35 am
Reuben wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 2:45 pmI'm going to do something completely unexpected by agreeing with both of you.
...
I see what you did there.

You agree with "this" part, right?
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:14 am(I'm one of those idiots.)

Yes! I'm also one of those idiots. Three cheers for the human race!

Posted: **Fri May 29, 2020 7:38 pm**

Reuben wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 7:03 pm Yes! I'm also one of those idiots. Three cheers for the human race!

Is three the one that comes after two? I'm a bit idiot-ish myself.

Posted: **Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am**

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:35 pm.. the best we can do is listen to the CDC and follow their recommendations. We have no higher authority on this...

Maybe that’s not the best we can do...

U.S. Surgeon General Adams abandons Fauci/Bill Gates / WHO / CDC ‘Predictive Contagion’ Model

Coronavirus patent applied for 7/2014
https://patents.google.com/patent/US10130701B2/en
Who owns PIRBRIGHT INSTITUTE?

Many supposed deaths from covid have systematically been misreported, as hospital s have received more money if it was covid, so even if a patient died of heart disease, cancer, etc, covid is listed on health reports. Similarly, 99% of supposed covid deaths in Italy were discovered to have pre-existing health problems.

They are hoping to fund and be legally allowed to come into your home and force quarantine - in other facilites.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-con ... /6666/text

Posted: **Sun May 31, 2020 11:44 am**

Spot on in your comments in this thread, Newme.

Posted: **Sun May 31, 2020 11:45 am**

Random wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 11:44 am Spot on in your comments in this thread, Newme.

Thanks, Random.

I wish I was wrong.

NOM

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