NOM

1. Unlikeliness that there's an afterlife, which seems to make things a whole lot less meaningful. (This is an oversimplification, but a deeper dive only becomes more problematic.)
2. Problem of evil, which can be expanded to finding a reliable definition of God in general that's not just made up to fit one's current values.
3. Lack of a reason to believe the supernatural claims of the Bible, which undermines all of the uniquely Mormon beliefs.

• Eternal families/sealings - I was preparing a sharing time for primary and went down this rabbit hole. It made no sense and everywhere I went it seemed that no one knew anything, it was all opinion and people made it up as they went along (true about so many things, but that's another issue altogether)

• Book of Abraham

• My divine nature and individual worth as a woman - I realized that I didn't matter in God's plan, except to make babies. And serve men. Very depressing.

• Can I add a fourth? It isn't really a fourth because it can't be separated from everything else: the church's dishonesty and lack of integrity.

1. Polyandry and Polygamy
2. Translation and historicity issues with BoM and BoA
3. The profound unreliability of the spirit in discerning truth

alas wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:45 pm[2.] The crappy way they treat women.
3. The crappy way they treat LGTB.

Stig wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:23 pm Here are mine (at the moment):

• Prayer doesn't work and is not a reliable way of determining truth;

• The institutional Church holds its members to a level of honesty it doesn't follow itself;

• Too many of the actions of Church leaders have been morally indefensible.

hmb wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:38 am You all are a bunch of whiners and liars. Everyone knows that you are just looking for ways to be offended so you can sin. Sinning is fun and addicting. All you guys out there just want functioning factories to operate in whatever way pleases you. You need an excuse to hang on to that extra 10%, and hunger for the extra weekend day to do as you please. This isn't the church's problem. On your knees brethren and sistren. Your millstones must be feeling pretty heavy.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:24 pm For me, these really are an unholy trinity. I can't rank them, because they all tie in together. To borrow Alas's phrase:

Eternal families-my father's entire line is non-LDS. Much of my mother's line, as well. My favorite aunt won't be in the CK, my best friend won't be there. Without them, it'll be stinking boring, because they really liven up a place. My parents won't be married. My father won't be there. My mother will probably choose not to be married which would have her sacrificing exaltation and, thus, family. I have a sibling or two they if I see very little of them, that's just fine. I know there are a lot of toxic families and the doctrine of eternal family just isn't a big selling point to some people.

The crappy way they treat women-another good turn out phrase by Alas. From inequality to polygamy (again, eternal family). Just too all encompassing. It's in the very warp and weft of the doctrines. Impossible to excise and have the church be the same...which might be good.

The aggressive culture -- Have you ever noticed how aggressive this church is? Respecting boundaries is one of the most interpersonal behaviors there are. Being able to set healthy boundaries is one of the most important adult skills there are. This church crashes through and obliterates boundaries. There are many people who say they could be a cultural Mormon. This aggressive culture is the reason why I will end up not even being a cultural Mormon. It is part of my heritage, but I choose not to belong to this aggressive disrespectful culture.

alas wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:59 pm

Give It Time wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:24 pm For me, these really are an unholy trinity. I can't rank them, because they all tie in together. To borrow Alas's phrase:

Eternal families-my father's entire line is non-LDS. Much of my mother's line, as well. My favorite aunt won't be in the CK, my best friend won't be there. Without them, it'll be stinking boring, because they really liven up a place. My parents won't be married. My father won't be there. My mother will probably choose not to be married which would have her sacrificing exaltation and, thus, family. I have a sibling or two they if I see very little of them, that's just fine. I know there are a lot of toxic families and the doctrine of eternal family just isn't a big selling point to some people.

The crappy way they treat women-another good turn out phrase by Alas. From inequality to polygamy (again, eternal family). Just too all encompassing. It's in the very warp and weft of the doctrines. Impossible to excise and have the church be the same...which might be good.

The aggressive culture -- Have you ever noticed how aggressive this church is? Respecting boundaries is one of the most interpersonal behaviors there are. Being able to set healthy boundaries is one of the most important adult skills there are. This church crashes through and obliterates boundaries. There are many people who say they could be a cultural Mormon. This aggressive culture is the reason why I will end up not even being a cultural Mormon. It is part of my heritage, but I choose not to belong to this aggressive disrespectful culture.

We discuss all the time about the church's boundary issues, but I have never applied the word "aggressive" to the church's boundary violations. I mentioned the idea to my progressive but still TBM husband and it started a good discussion. When we were in the marriage stage of babies and pregnancies we were both put in leadership positions and after several years of various leadership, we hit burn out and developed some firm boundaries with the church. It started with me being primary president and that wasn't bad, but then I was RSP prez, then him 1st counselor in b-ric, then him as scout master. We just could not keep our sanity in that kind of time consuming calling with small children. But past that point, we started saying "no" to the big callings. We simply did not let the home teachers in at the children's bed time, or during supper if they showed up with no appointment. We started skipping church once in a while just to enjoy family time. But with all of that boundary reinforcement to protect ourselves, I never connected that the church is downright aggressive. It doesn't just violate boundaries out of lack of consideration, but it purposely puts the church's needs ahead of everything else. It trains its members to have no boundaries as far as it is concerned. When people want to cut back or drop out, is aggressive enough in its retention efforts as to be more than a little annoying. It trains missionaries to be aggressive in spreading the gospel, and that aggressiveness becomes part of the culture.

We talked about how the church works for extroverts, but this aggressive culture is too intrusive and makes introverts very uncomfortable. So, not only does it demand extroverted behavior from people who are really uncomfortable with it, but when the introvert tries to pull back because they are overwhelmed, there is the church aggressively shoving itself into their faces.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:29 am Hmb is right.

My top three:

1. Desire to watch R rated movies.
2. Desire to drink coffee, tea, and alcohol.
4. Desire to look at (.)(.)
5. Desire to avoid total mind numbing boringness.