NOM

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:51 pm No doubt Joseph had a heavy object wrapped in a cloth and/or hidden in a box, but I don't think he needed an actual replica. The eight witness testimony is dissatisfying on many levels. When you put the pieces together I think they really just lifted a heavy object and examined a transcription of the characters on paper.

As far as the three witnesses go, I'm not sure Oliver said that much about it and Martin admitted it was only a mental image. A prop doesn't work for Whitmer because his description is much more elaborate and includes a table with all kinds of other goodies laid out on it including the Gadianton book of secret nastiness.

The prop also doesn't work for Mary Whitney, because reputedly saw the plates without Joseph being there, unless........ there was a another person who showed her the plates. Mary reported that a stout old man with a beard showed her the plates. I still am still not satisfied with critical explanations of the witnesses. I'm not saying there were real gold plates but I don't feel satisfied with the critical explanations. I'm trying to come up with a better one.

So how did they seal that portion anyway? Was it done with a welder? Gorilla glue? Ancient reformed Egyptian cement?

I can just see joseph trying to open it with a pry bar and getting another visitation by an ancient native american wearing a robe. Shame on you joseph there is no way your going to get at that. You will have better luck with fanny. go talk to her she is in the barn..

I was told in seminary that the sealed portion constituted about 2/3rds of the total number of plates.

I did a study once of the most concise languages available today and if those languages were used, how much physical gold-plate space was needed to fit all of the language of the Book of Mormon and compared that to the dimensions that Joseph Smith gave. Bottom line, all of the language of the Book of Mormon can't fit into the size that he gave. Making lots of conservative estimates, the plate stack would still have to be 26 inches (over 2 ft) thick, or a book that is greater than 4 times as thick as it is wide. Make that out of Gold, and you have a very heavy object indeed.

Pay Lay Ale = oh God, hear the words of my mouth. That's about 3x1 condensation.
So your 28" thick plates would be about 8".
Checkmate, church is true.

I've been reading different accounts of June 3-5, 1831 conference of the church in Kirtland. It's interesting how these people were convinced they were experiencing supernatural events. Joseph Smith could be a very convincing speaker, as demonstrated in that setting. The power of suggestion/semi-hypnotism could perhaps account for it. I compare it to the BOM witnesses and wonder how exactly that event played out. I suppose we have all the first hand accounts we will ever have. We have the supernatural setting with the three witnesses and the less miraculous setting with the eight a day or two later; and no forensic evidence. Does God have something against forensic evidence?

You ever wonder how valuable those plates really were? Moroni told joseph to be careful, and not let Satan tempt him into selling the plates, because obviously they were very valuable, heck they were made from solid gold right? he went to great lengths to protect the plates from thieves presumably wanting to just melt down the plates, and cash in on the gold

Later we learn, well they couldn't really have been made from gold because that would have made them too heavy, so they had to be made from something other than gold, when joseph says gold plates, he really meant they had the appearance of gold.

so how valuable would plates with the appearance of gold really be?

Also why did Moroni bury the plates in the first place, we know god has the ability to take them back to Kolob, or where ever they are now, so why risk burying them, and letting them get destroyed by the elements over time, or heck you never know, somebody might accidentally unearth them before joseph was even born, we know treasure digging was a big thing back then, and if joseph was able to get to them with nothing more than a shovel and a stick used for leverage, they couldn't have been that well hidden. too risky, just take them back to Kolob, and then when the time is right, Moroni could have personally delivered them to Joseph, in tip top condition.

Come to think of it why does any of this matter, he didn't really use them anyway

The reason for bringing this up is to give good answers to TBM's who see the witnesses as the "proof" for the BOM. I think Joseph may have had a prop, or he may have just used persuasion skills he learned as a money digger. Joseph had a lot of experience in getting people to believe he could see things with a seer stone. How did Joseph get people to believe they were seeing gold plates? Dan Vogel suggests use of a prop, but he doesn't get more specific than that. Are there any "magical/hypnotic parallels that help explain it?

the eight witnesses are a little harder to explain, as they claim that joseph actually showed them whatever prop or plates he had, and that they actually handled, and hefted them. this seems like it would have been a bit tricker to pull off, however in the case of the 3 witnesses.

"And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon" (did the angel have a 2nd copy?)

the fact that an angel came down and showed them the plates, tells me that they never actually saw whatever joseph smith may have had, be it a prop or plates. Whatever they saw, they saw with their "spiritual eyes"

Perhaps Joseph used the power of persuasion, or peer pressure.

Maybe something like this

ok guys if you really want to see the plates I will take you into the forest, and we will pray about it, but I can tell you right now, God will only reveal the plates to you if your worthy.

so they proceed into the forest, pray and ask God to show them the plates, after a few minutes joseph says ok guys, God has deemed me worthy, and I see the plates before us, do you see them? You don't? well keep praying, you will see them only when you are worthy. how about now? no? what is wrong with you guys, which one of you has sinned, that is keeping you from seeing the plates? after a few mins Oliver pipes up, ah yes I see the plates now, I bet it was David, I saw him doing some strange things in the bathroom the other night. Then David pipes up, it isn't me! I see the plates now! it must be Martin, a few minutes later, Martin says, oh you mean these plates right here, ah, silly me, I was looking more under the tree, didn't even notice the plates right in front of us LOL.

Here is a link to Dan Vogel's explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmX-H1GBivk

Corsair wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:24 pm There is one film the church produced that dramatizes an instance where Joseph is transporting the plates at the bottom of a barrel of grain. Emma is with him and they get stopped by people wanting to take a look at the plates. So Joseph volunteers to scoop out every bit of grain so they can see that there are no plates for them to see. As a believer watching this movie this scene is tense because the plates are in jeopardy, but somehow God will protect them. The potential thieves get impatient and ride off before Joseph gets to the bottom of the grain barrel.

That is freakin' hilarious. According to that story people obviously believe the plates are in the barrel, thus Joe volunteers to empty the barrel to show them they're wrong. So somehow we are to believe these people grow bored and walk away?? That would be thieves don't just toss ole Joe to the side and dump the barrel over to get to bottom of it (pun intended) fast??? I swear, only Mormon Inc (or possibly some other four letter "C" word) could come up with such cow crap and act like it makes sense and is perfectly legit.

LostMormon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:24 pm]so they proceed into the forest, pray and ask God to show them the plates, after a few minutes joseph says ok guys, God has deemed me worthy, and I see the plates before us, do you see them? You don't? well keep praying, you will see them only when you are worthy. how about now? no? what is wrong with you guys, which one of you has sinned, that is keeping you from seeing the plates? after a few mins Oliver pipes up, ah yes I see the plates now, I bet it was David, I saw him doing some strange things in the bathroom the other night. Then David pipes up, it isn't me! I see the plates now! it must be Martin, a few minutes later, Martin says, oh you mean these plates right here, ah, silly me, I was looking more under the tree, didn't even notice the plates right in front of us LOL.

Isn't that pretty much the actual story? As I recall there were multiple attempts, but those in attendance lacked faith until finally the plates were seen. Definitely sounds like a version of what you've described here. No one wants to be the faithless heathen that keeps the plates from appearing nor the one that eventually admits to being (apparently) the only one that never actually saw anything.

Once home in Manchester, he said he walked to Cumorah, removed the plates from their hiding place, and walked home through the woods and away from the road with the plates wrapped in a linen frock under his arm.[90] On the way, he said a man had sprung up from behind a log and struck him a "heavy blow with a gun." "Knocking the man down with a single punch, Joseph ran as fast as he could for about a half mile before he was attacked by a second man trying to get the plates. After similarly overpowering the man, Joseph continued to run, but before he reached the house, a third man hit him with a gun. In striking the last man, Joseph said, he injured his thumb."[91] He returned home with a dislocated thumb and other minor injuries.[92] Smith sent his father, Joseph Knight, and Josiah Stowell to search for the pursuers, but they found no one.[93]

Going for the gold is not an easy task, whether at the track and field of the Tokyo Olympics or on the road to Palmyra.

Lostmormon brings up some great points. Peer pressure and manipulation have been shown to affect people to the point where they will give wrong answers just to conform with their group. The Asch Experiment shows this, and has been confirmed many times.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA-gbpt7Ts8

TBM's see the witnesses as irrefutable, but in our day convictions based on witnesses are overturned because of DNA evidence.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:48 am I've been reading different accounts of June 3-5, 1831 conference of the church in Kirtland. It's interesting how these people were convinced they were experiencing supernatural events. Joseph Smith could be a very convincing speaker, as demonstrated in that setting. The power of suggestion/semi-hypnotism could perhaps account for it.

Not to mention the fact that they were fasting and then given a stiff shot of sacramental wine, so to speak. Drinking on an empty stomach is a great way, I am told, to come up with supernatural visions in a big hurry!

fh451

fh451 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:03 am

deacon blues wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:48 am I've been reading different accounts of June 3-5, 1831 conference of the church in Kirtland. It's interesting how these people were convinced they were experiencing supernatural events. Joseph Smith could be a very convincing speaker, as demonstrated in that setting. The power of suggestion/semi-hypnotism could perhaps account for it.

Not to mention the fact that they were fasting and then given a stiff shot of sacramental wine, so to speak. Drinking on an empty stomach is a great way, I am told, to come up with supernatural visions in a big hurry!

fh451

I hadn't heard that they were fasting, but it's certainly possible. I do remember a quote from Lucy Smith's book. Joseph told Martin,"You have got to humble yourself before your God this day, that you may attain a forgiveness of your sins. If you do, it is the will of God that you should look upon the plates, in company with David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery." A TBM would see that as a call to repentance. A skeptic would probably see it as coertion and/or gaslighting.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:34 amI hadn't heard that they were fasting, but it's certainly possible.

I may be confusing the fasting/drinking with a later conference (I couldn't find a reference to that one specifically), though it does seem that the practice was fairly common. There has also been speculation about what special substances might have been in Joseph's "annointing oil" that was frequently used. It seems that when people were annointed and blessed they often had strange visionary experiences afterwards. Unfortunately, there is no hard evidence that psychotropic substances were used, but it would explain a lot.

fh451