NOM

wtfluff wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:34 pm

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:16 pm What power he has in Mormonism, and that the only person to directly address the audience in the temple drama is Satan himself. Amazing.

Adam addresses the audience in the drama too when he tells the audience that Peter, James and John are "True Messengers".

(Just sayin'...)

You are right, I forgot about that.

document wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:25 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:34 pm

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:16 pm What power he has in Mormonism, and that the only person to directly address the audience in the temple drama is Satan himself. Amazing.

Adam addresses the audience in the drama too when he tells the audience that Peter, James and John are "True Messengers".

(Just sayin'...)

You are right, I forgot about that.

Well... Adam isn't as cool as Satan! In the "drama", so, there's that...

While I don't believe in any type of Satan persona, and disagree with the 2nd Nephi idea that Satan is needed as opposition (as if temptation requires an invisible demon, otherwise we would all be perfect little angels), I have had some thoughts recently about the archtype of Satan in Christian mythology.

I first have to make some very Mormony assumptions about the characteristics of God.
1) God is not all powerful, in the fact that he cannot remove (even if he wanted to) our free will, or the free will of Satan.
2) God cares about individual humans with a pure, omni-benevolent love.
3) God personally feels pain when a human sins
4) There is no "war" between God and Satan that has winners and losers.

In this world (which I doubt actually exists), Satan isn't trying to tempt mankind because he is gaining advantage over Satan, and God doesn't want Satan to tempt us to prove our worthiness. Satan is a rebel child that is simply trying to hurt God as much as he through a proxy war targeting us. God wishes that Satan would stop, because each child that falls away is causing God more and more pain, but he is powerless to stop his rebel child. Satan can't really win anything other than our suffering and the suffering of God.

The only real way that God could triumph over Satan would be to have Universal Salvation, including for Satan and his followers. As long as Satan himself continues to not accept salvation, it will continue to hurt God, unless God can somehow stop loving His creations (in which case, he doesn't have a true love for us). If a single soul actually suffered and eternity in Hell, that would also be an eternity of Hell for God, since that would be unending pain for Him watching His child writhe in agony unending.

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:16 pm where Satan would break the fourth wall in the LDS temple ceremony and say (something like) "if you do not live up to the covenants you make at this altar in this temple in this day, you will be in my power"

I always thought Satan was the most interesting character/only actor with any ability in the temple movie. I'd watch it like: "oh this is so boring and weird...oh wait here comes Satan! YAY!!!"

I had several experiences on my mission which lead me to strongly believe in some adversarial force. I most certainly believed it was Satan that was doing these things to me. For a long time, this was a foundational part of my testimony. These experiences where I felt the adversary so strongly were obvious signs that I needed to follow God and the Church.

Then I figured out that I was actually just experiencing sleep paralysis, which is a clearly documented medical phenomenon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

I am much happier knowing that from time to time my body is transitioning through some state halfway between sleep and awake and incapable of moving rather than believing Satan is literally trying to drag me down to Hell.

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:16 pm I described to her what I considered the pinnacle of Mormon obsession with Satan: where Satan would break the fourth wall in the LDS temple ceremony and say (something like) "if you do not live up to the covenants you make at this altar in this temple in this day, you will be in my power".

I have a different view on this. On my mission, I was discussing LDS views of Satan with another missionary. I can't remember exactly what we were talking about, but it had to do with something that Lucifer says in the temple ceremony. I commented that I believed what he (Satan) said to be true. My friend then boldly stated, "But he's Satan, all he does is lie!" I retorted that it was in the Temple, so he must be telling the truth, to which my friend replied, "NO, ALL HE DOES IS LIE!!!"

That had a big impact on me. I've always looked at the part of the temple ceremony that you reference above differently after that. When I hear him say that line, all I think now is, "you're lying! I'll never be under your (metaphorical) control!" This view even works for TBMs. The atonement exists to keep Satan from having power over you.

AZFlyer, that is a fascinating way of looking at it. I must admit I never thought of that as a believer.

Satan is the one who tells us to cover our nakedness. So modesty is following Satan.

moksha wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:31 pm Sometimes it is fun to consider a pantheon of angels, such as:

Michael - the archangel
Gabriel - the one with the horn
Metronome - the one who keeps the beat
Libido - the one with the drawn sword

You just made my day, Moksha.

I just had a member of the RS presidency tell me that Satan was responsible for the common core. Is there anything we can't blame on Satan?

I don't know that I any longer believe in a "Satan" with all the theological trappings presented by Mormonism.

I believe there are good people and bad people.

I also believe there are good spirits/forces and bad spirits/forces that have from time to time broken into my normal life to affect me in personal ways.

I know that at one time I interpreted these experiences as confirming of Mormon truths.

I no longer interpret them in such a restrictive sense.

But I have had the experiences nonetheless.

Not trying to sound all mystical here. And I do not consider these (or any) experiences "too sacred to share."

Just putting it out there as my opinion since that is what the OP asked for.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

MerrieMiss wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:52 am I just had a member of the RS presidency tell me that Satan was responsible for the common core. Is there anything we can't blame on Satan?

If you are feeling brave and tolerant of conservative rants, ask your RS presidency member if Satan also had a hand in global warming, vaccines, Hilary Clinton, and ISIS.

Got to love what you find on reddit...

No, a literal Satan went out the window with a literal God. I remember Zilpha on Mormon Expression saying years ago that she actually lost a belief in Satan first and then reasoned her way to losing faith in God.

From one of my all-time favorite books (see my avatar):

There were people who called themselves Satanists who made Crowley squirm. It wasn't just the things they did, it was the way they blamed it all on Hell. They'd come up with some stomach-churning idea that no demon could have thought of in a thousand years, some dark and mindless unpleasantness that only a fully-functioning human brain could conceive, then shout "The Devil Made Me Do It" and get the sympathy of the court when the whole point was that the Devil hardly ever made anyone do anything. He didn't have to. That was what some humans found hard to understand. Hell wasn't a major reservoir of evil, any more than Heaven, in Crowley's opinion, was a fountain of goodness; they were just sides in the great cosmic chess game. Where you found the real McCoy, the real grace and the real heart-stopping evil, was right inside the human mind.

This book was influential on my thinking long before my faith crisis. In some ways, it may have planted some seeds about God & Satan and how they probably weren't so involved in our lives as Mormons sometimes thought (he found my lost keys!). As others have said in this thread, I also wondered at times how Satan had a choice in the plan. It kind of seemed like he was essential. I remember even heretically theorizing that maybe he was fulfilling a vital role in the plan of salvation assigned to him by God himself and he would one day be rewarded. Ah, mental gymnastics.

mooseman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:46 pm Got to love what you find on reddit...11326583_477210659102094_561581169_n.jpg

Okay. I read it.

I actually kind of liked the punch line at the end.

Thanks!

No, he pretty much went when God disappeared from my belief system.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:47 am
Once I got rid of the angel and devil on my shoulder I noticed that life still happens the same way it always did, only my mind was much more at ease about it.

this. Fear, guilt, shame...lots of ugly and sad things went away or diminished for me. When I hear people talk about Satan, I cringe. Like during the last F&T when they were scaring the youth by saying he was out to get them.....

azflyer wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:00 pm

document wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:16 pm I described to her what I considered the pinnacle of Mormon obsession with Satan: where Satan would break the fourth wall in the LDS temple ceremony and say (something like) "if you do not live up to the covenants you make at this altar in this temple in this day, you will be in my power".

I have a different view on this. On my mission, I was discussing LDS views of Satan with another missionary. I can't remember exactly what we were talking about, but it had to do with something that Lucifer says in the temple ceremony. I commented that I believed what he (Satan) said to be true. My friend then boldly stated, "But he's Satan, all he does is lie!" I retorted that it was in the Temple, so he must be telling the truth, to which my friend replied, "NO, ALL HE DOES IS LIE!!!"

That had a big impact on me. I've always looked at the part of the temple ceremony that you reference above differently after that. When I hear him say that line, all I think now is, "you're lying! I'll never be under your (metaphorical) control!" This view even works for TBMs. The atonement exists to keep Satan from having power over you.

Back in the day when I went through the old mission home we had a question-and-answer session in the temple with the temple president. One sister missionary asked the temple president about that line Satan delivers in the temple. The mission President also brought up the same thing as AZ flyer mentioned, that Satan is a liar so that we need not take seriously what he says including in the temple. So I got the same thing from, shall we say, an authoritative source.

My belief in the devil went about a decade ago, long long before anything else. It only made sense to me for the devil to be symbolic. Quite simply there is no need for the devil. The central tenet of the study of modern economics is scarcity - put simply people are greedy. Between competition for resources and the urge to dominate others, and passions/drives such as anger and sex, if there ever was a devil he wouldn't need to do much.

While we are on the subject the recent article in the Ensign 'The War Goes On' (where gay marriage is described as counterfeit) was positively cringey - seriously whacked out. With the theme of the great Satan battling it out for our souls. Even my TBM DW read it and thought it was all manner of nuttery.