The sacred work of abortion

[AllieOop]

Just because many people on this forum (everyone on this thread except me) believes it's ok to kill a child, doesn't make it ethically right.

Just because you believe strongly in a topic doesn't mean you have the right to claim people here believe "it's ok to kill a child." That's a gross mis-charactarization of just about every person here (if not everyone), and is insulting and flat wrong. Similarly, the reason people come to their conclusions is just "herd mentality." Perhaps you might want to actually make a positive argument for your case and avoid impugning people's motives.

I'm no longer a moderator here, but this is one of those hot button issues that has repeatedly caused (on the old NOM board) tension and dissension. It's ok to have strongly held beliefs, but maybe we can remember to state our positions with clarity and not insult.

fh451

Thanks fh451, I was just writing a post for this thread when I saw you'd posted this.

As moderators, we really want to leave all threads open for civil discussion, but we know that this topic can be polarizing and is understandably an emotional topic for many (most?). Hopefully the discussion can stay away from personal attacks, but if not, we will have to lock this thread. Just an FYI and a reminder to respect everyone's right to their opinion regardless of whether you agree with it or not.


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[Flaming Meaux]

Killing a child is wrong in most cases - it is very rare when it is ethical to stop a beating heart.
Just because many people on this forum (everyone on this thread except me) believes it's ok to kill a child, doesn't make it ethically right.
What bothers me most on this thread is not so much the topic of abortion - who knows - maybe this thread will do nothing for saving lives.
But what bothers me is the HERD mentality. I see no consideration of FACTS of human development, just attacks at me and anybody suggesting that it might be morally wrong to kill a child who has no way of defending him/herself.

It bothers me that nobody else on this forum has shown any backbone to stand up for these little children - even those who may believe that it's wrong are too afraid to be verbally attacked. So many people, especially many Mormons and "post-Mormons" are herd-thinkers - they just jump to different herds, seeking to fit in. So few actually THINK for themselves and form their own unique opinions based on facts and ethics.

Well, unless you are limiting your critique to partial-birth abortion, then you should at least know that you've made a significant value judgment in stating that embryos developing in the first trimester are "children" the same way that a fetuses that would be viable outside the womb are "children." Your opinion, but you really don't see how anyone could philosophically, morally, or ethically disagree with you on that?

There may not be a distinction to you, but there is to lots of other people of good will and sound ethical judgment who disagree with you--and while it may pain you to hear it, it isn't just because they are a herd mentality, it is because that is their reasoned and considered view on the subject.

I could discuss why these are my considered views on the subject, but I get the sense you aren't really interested. It may just be the way you are coming across given the limitations of the medium, or the way I am perceiving you as coming across.

[Newme]

Perhaps you might want to actually make a positive argument for your case and avoid impugning people's motives.

It seems you haven't read what I posted because I did make a positive argument for my case - substantiated FACTS - but they were ignored.
In case you missed it:

By 8 weeks gestation, all body systems are intact, so by the time many abortions are conducted, he/she can FEEL his/her body being ripped apart limb by limb. We don't hear their screams but that doesn't mean they don't feel pain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3ZQURkpGY0 Utah is the first state to require with abortions, babies to be given pain-killers after a certain time gestation (should be earlier but at least it's better than none).

About 1% of abortions are given medical reason. And it does make sense to save one life (mother) rather than lose 2. But that's rare.
Most abortions are overwhemingly done as an irresponsible excuse for birth control.

Obviously (or not), legality is not something that can be affected on an online forum.
Education of child development and the facts of how a child is killed in abortions is what can help people make more informed decisions.

When does a child have any rights? When they're finished developing - around 18 or in their 20's??
When they're able to be legally independent and not reliant on adult guardianship?
Until then, they have the right to die only? It just doesn't make sense logically nor ethically.
To Clarify: The absurd logic of killing a teenager because they have not fully developed and are still reliant on adults, is the same absurd logic used to KILL children (developing human beings) in abortion.

New Study Shows 85 Percent of Women Say Abortions Cause Mental Health Issues
http://www.lifenews.com/2009/11/03/int-1371/

Abortion Risks: A list of major physical complications related to abortion:
Approximately 10% of women undergoing induced abortion suffer from immediate complications, of which one-fifth (2%) were considered major. [19] However the majority of complications take time to develop and will not be apparent for days, months or even years. Major risks and complications of abortion are described, with citations to the medical literature, below.
-DEATH
-CERVICAL, OVARIAN, AND LIVER CANCER:
-UTERINE PERFORATION:
-CERVICAL LACERATIONS:
-PLACENTA PREVIA:
-SUBSEQUENT PRE-TERM DELIVERIES AND OTHER COMPLICATIONS OF LABOR:
-PRETERM BIRTH/HANDICAPPED NEWBORNS IN LATER PREGNANCIES:
-ECTOPIC PREGNANCY:
-PELVIC INFLAMMATORY DISEASE (PID):
-ENDOMETRITIS:
-IMMEDIATE COMPLICATIONS:
-INCREASED RISKS FOR WOMEN SEEKING MULTIPLE ABORTIONS:
-LOWER GENERAL HEALTH:
-INCREASED RISK FOR CONTRIBUTING HEALTH RISK FACTORS:
-PSYCHOLOGICAL COMPLICATIONS:
http://afterabortion.org/1999/abortion- ... -abortion/

Similarly, the reason people come to their conclusions is just "herd mentality."

Are you so sure about that?
Do you think anybody on this forum who is so in favor of killing children, would kill a child with their own hands?
Mob mentality allows for killing and other insane behavior that individuals would never do on their own.
"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."

I'm no longer a moderator here, but this is one of those hot button issues that has repeatedly caused (on the old NOM board) tension and dissension. It's ok to have strongly held beliefs, but maybe we can remember to state our positions with clarity and not insult.

fh451

Thank you - I hope people will be more kind and refrain from calling me names - mislabeling me with broad generalized labels, it's illogical and not right - even if everyone is doing it. Focus on the facts and the arguments I present - instead of labeling me with ad hominems.

[LaMachina]

By 8 weeks gestation, all body systems are intact, so by the time many abortions are conducted, he/she can FEEL his/her body being ripped apart limb by limb.

What does "intact" mean? Are the rudimentary parts there or starting to develop? Sure. Are they functioning as they will when the baby is full term? Not even close.

When does a fetus feel pain? Much medical research indicates it's not until after 20 weeks. There is debate of course but that is currently the medical consensus.
http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/

Only 1% of abortions are performed after this period and they are almost exclusively done for medical reasons:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00592.html

All medical procedures have complications. How significant are the risks? What are the odds? Going into for knee surgery can also lead to death but what is the likelihood?
Are women getting abortions likely to suffer mental illness as a result? Much research indicates no, not really:
https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2013/06/ ... h-problems

Do you think anybody on this forum who is so in favor of killing children, would kill a child with their own hands?
Mob mentality allows for killing and other insane behavior that individuals would never do on their own.

As has been mentioned, those who oppose abortion are likely to justify it in their OWN case if they find the need. Which side is the herd mentality?

While I agree with you, abortion is usually a last resort approach to birth control (which is why these women's health clinics and birth control need to be more universally available) it seems it is not because women are necessarily being selfish. The majority are already mothers who are desperate to take care of the children they already have:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY-bQ6UzhNI

Personally I think there have been many thoughtful and compassionate responses in this thread by people like Snowdrop, alas, Flaming Meaux and Enoch Witty. And yet they have been labelled herd mentality thinkers and being complacent about child killing. Maybe take some of that "not labeling people with ad hominems" advice for yourself?
But honestly I appreciate your passion, if not always the way you express it. It is a subject that merits deep consideration.

[Newme]

First off, I apologize - I did not mean to imply that everyone reading or posting on this forum is basing their opinions on group-thought. I never stated such actually - but I did state that many do - and I believe this is the case and can be substantiated by research. Most people fall for herd-mentality - it is a very sad tendency of human nature.

As to when a child (developing human being) feels pain...


"Maureen Condic, Ph.D. is an Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah and obtained her Ph.D. from University of California, Berkeley. She is a widely-published scientist whose works have appeared in a wide variety of peer-reviewed journals.

“The earliest “rudiment” of the human nervous system forms by 28 days (four weeks) after sperm – egg fusion. At this stage, the primitive brain is already “patterned”; i.e. cells in different regions are specified to produce structures appropriate to their location in the nervous system as a whole,” she told lawmakers during the hearing on the bill in may 2013.

Dr. Condic explained, “Over the next several weeks, the brain will grow enormously and generate many complex connections, but the overall organization of the nervous system is established by four weeks. This is significant because it shows that even at this early stage, the brain is not anything like a mere collection of cells or a “blank slate” to be written upon by later developmental processes. Like all embryonic organs, the structure of the early brain “anticipates” the function of the mature system.”

When it comes to pain specifically, scientific evidence is very clear that pain can be experienced by 20 weeks of pregnancy. But Condic said unborn children have a capacity to feel pain much earlier.

Knowing the unborn child feels pain early in pregnancy, Condic says the question is what to do then.

“Imposing pain on any pain-capable living creature is cruelty. And ignoring the pain experienced by another human individual for any reason is barbaric. We don’t need to know if a human fetus is self- reflective or even self- aware to afford it the same consideration we currently afford other pain – capable species. We simply have to decide whether we will choose to ignore the pain of the fetus or not,” she concludes."
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/05/12/expe ... t-8-weeks/



Now, if a child FEELs pain, it is "cruel and unusual punishment" to kill children who have not been proven guilty - wrong constitutionally on many different levels. Then there's also the founding US document that says "all have the right to life." And who gives them this right? Government? Nope. "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

For the sake of argument, let's pretend that a child doesn't feel pain (even though we know that they do at some point after 8 weeks gestation). If a person is going for surgery and cannot feel anything because of anesthesia - does it somehow make it ok to kill that person because they cannot feel any pain? Of course not, and similarly in the case of killing a child based on age-discrimination. Yes, pain is an element of the discussion, but ultimately, not the most important. LIFE - it is what we all have been given. We each were allowed to live and not be killed. Our hearts were not stopped. What right do we have to kill others and deny their right to life?

[Luther Heggs]

This really isn't complicated. If you want to make abortion illegal then what is the punishment for having one? Are we proposing to to treat abortion as murder (because it's "killing a child"). If so do you propose long prison sentences or the death penalty for an abortion? Yes abortion is a difficult choice, but I'm not willing to abide penalties for a difficult choice. Never propose or support a law unless you are willing for society to enforce the penalty.

[trophywife26.2]

I am going to lock this thread. If someone wants to start new threads like, "Help Me understand how my family member is pro-choice?" or "How can I make peace with my pro-life TBM family member/friend when I am pro-choice?" That would seem more in line with our goals. This thread seems intentionally created to stir up controversy and/or the majority of the comments seem to be focused on proselytize their own views rather than understanding each other. Feel free to PM if you have an issue with that or question about it. Also feel free to start new threads, let's try to keep the focus on understanding rather than sharing our own views with the goal of changing minds.

I wanted to amend that I don't feel the original poster meant to stir up controversy necessarily, but the article linked appears to me written to stir up controversy/was more propaganda than actual news (lifenews.com). Political tensions are high after the inauguration and the Women's march. I want to keep NOM a safe space.