Choose to believe?

[Angel]

A great line from "SecondHand Lions" was that some things are worth believing in, it doesn't matter if they're true.

https://youtu.be/wJemDZcgIZE

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good. That honor, courage and virtue mean everything ; that power and money … money and power mean nothing. That good always triumphs over evil. And I want you to remember this…. that love….true love never dies. Remember that boy … remember that. Doesn’t matter if it is true or not, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in.”

No need to believe in everything. Everyone decides what is worth believing in.

My beliefs sort of follow that idea.

I believe in God because I want to. I believe that we'll live again after we die. I believe we'll be with family after we die-- well, if we want to, that is.

Everyone here has lost people... I cannot be the only one who has felt their presence after they die? I understand - an object, a place, a song - things that bring them up in your mind, but there are times when it really feels like they are there.

I believe God doesn't care about most things we think he cares about, and that she probably only mostly cares that we are nice to one another.

I believe we are all connected to each other and to the earth and all the things on it, and that we can sometimes feel that connection, but it's usually never at church.

I believe that love might be all you need, but it's also good to have a job.

I believe that happiness in life relates to having someone or someones to love who also love you back, having work or some passion that you enjoy, and using some of your time, talents, or skills to give to someone else to make their life better.

Those are things I feel are worth believing in.

I also believe Jesus was probably a real person and that he was probably a pretty cool dude.

I believe Mary Magdalena was hopefully a real person, and that she and Jesus had a thing.

I believe that Moroni probably wasn't a real person, but that Captain Moroni was a real person and that his name was George Washington.

I believe that Brigham Young was probably kind of a dick... but that Joseph Smith probably had a bigger one.

I believe that Moses parted his hair, but probably not the red sea.

I believe that Adam and Eve were the first people mentioned in the Bible.

I believe the first humans probably didn't talk very well.

I believe that if God told me to sacrifice my son on an alter like he supposedly told Abraham, then I would tell God to go $@#% himself. I also believe that God was godawful to Job, but that neither of those stories probably really happened, and that most of what is attributed to God probably had nothing to do with God, and maybe God is just something we created to help explain what we can't ever explain or control, or to help us feel justified in treating other people like s#^t .. and since that isn't the God I want to believe in, I don't.

I believe the fullness of the gospel probably has something to do with how much bologna it contains.

I believe that Lucifer is a real bad name for a child, but that Satan is worse.

And finally, I believe that "I Believe in Christ" is probably the worst hymn to sing.

Amen Cnsl1. Thank you for bearing your testimony.

[Angel]

Seeing is believing or believing is seeing? Rose colored glasses provide sweet dreams at night, and when confronted by missionaries it becomes possible to share your own beliefs - about your glorious God, and even better afterlife - and then feel sorry for everyone else who does not have as happy of a vision or as strong of hope and faith as you do.


... well, I believe in a God who is powerful and wise enough to save everyone in the same degree of glory. My God isn't sexist, my God isn't racist. My God loves all equally, and I believe and have faith we will all be eternally equally blessed and happy .

I mean, if you are going to believe in something - make it something good, right?

Totally! I'd take your God over the sexist, racist, homophobic, hidden Mormon God any day.

This thread is helping me think through my own hopes, and also healthy ways to interact with others who share their hopes with me.

If a Mormon, or Muslim, or anyone of faith shares their beliefs - I am now thinking a good response might be something along the lines of "I don't know what happens when we die, and I don't think anyone knows what happens, but I hope we will all find love, understanding, joy, and peace - all of us - many paths, one destination."

If I am going to be inspired by something, seek to have faith in something - it needs to really really good. Why seek to worship a God who is unable to educate his children? Unable to "save" everyone? Unable to end suffering? Just sweep dirt under the rug, push people to a different kingdom, ignore, abandon, withold resources to nourish and teach.... that is not inspiring to me.

There are other versions of heaven that are inspiring to me, even if it is just a hope.

My argument against this as a believer was that it doesn't matter how good it is, what matters is how true it is, and, I KNOW the Church is True. And because it is True, it is good. ITNOJC, Amen.

The thing that I was most interested in was that I was following the truth. It really still is. So for me a wonderful God and heaven that have no reasons to believe in is not compelling. I think it is great if someone can find comfort in that belief though, I just can't. Honestly, I struggle with the apparent meaninglessness of my existence, but it's part of who I am and where I'm at in life.

With that said, fictional stories can still be inspiring to me as long as they don't claim to be non-fiction. I was moved by Dear Evan Hansen just like everyone else .

Thanks for your openness and kindness in a discussion that can be as personal as this. I hope your beliefs continue to bring you hope and happiness!

Following the truth - following reality. I'm an engineering professor, and we joke about the difference between scientists and engineers. The big word for that difference is "applied" - "real". In theory, it is an "exact science", but there is no such thing as "exact engineering". There are neat and tidy scientific laws that work out well in theory - and we call those laws "real", but there are quite a few approximations, assumptions, idealized simplifications that happen on paper that just do not translate to reality. "Real" is not perfect, is messy, no exact numbers - haha, we talked through Gaussian distributions today, precision (good grouping around "true" value), accuracy (average follows "true" value), standard deviation, mean, median, mode - take all these measurements and they sort of show what is "true". We go through all these definitions, and then I ask everyone - "What is the "true" value? .... after a few moments, it dawns on some of them, all we know is what we measure with all the errors associated with measurements - we do not know the "true" value. All we know is an average, a standard deviation, the mean, the mode - we don't know the truth. Some prefer to be a scientist - hypothesis, scientific method - conclusions, write papers, give talks - stay in ivory theoretical towers and avoid the messiness of reality.... Others like engineering - the "engineering method", where the grand finale is not just a written "conclusion", for engineering the grand finale is an actual hearing aid, a real airplane (not just a picture of it), a real spaceship, a cell-phone - the grand finale is something that is actually real, not a piece of paper with writing on it. What is created cannot be called perfect, or exact or the "true" car, or the "perfect" house - designs aren't the truth - finger pointing to the moon as some say. Do not look at the finger, look to what it is pointing at. the reality beyond the symbol.

I tell students - nothing real is perfect, no perfect car, no perfect house - you have to be ok with uncertainty, with the hurricane that sweeps over, or the tanks that roll in - everything is far from perfect, but as an engineer you are not interested in perfect, you are interested in something that is real.

[Hagoth]

There are neat and tidy scientific laws that work out well in theory - and we call those laws "real"...

I think of those laws as the true "priesthood" power by which the universe was created, and continues to be created or create itself. The mystery is whether they are shadows of a Bigger Something, or whether the laws of nature are the creative force itself. Either way, I am in at least in as much awe of those forces as I ever was guy-on-throne-in-the-sky. If this apparent order of nature points to something greater, it must be equally significant and true for the 9-legged, 36-eyed slime-people of Betelgeuse 9. But I can understand why we might need to filter it through a lens that gives us an image we can relate to. Maybe guy-on-a-throne as a symbol for something more vast and alien than we can comprehend? If so, a mature understanding would be to recognize that we are looking at the shadow, not the actual caster of that shadow.

[Not Buying It]

I don't think I could "choose" to believe at this point, any more than I could choose to believe the sky is brown or that 2+2 = 5. I could pretend I believe, but I would know I was only pretending. All the evidence is right there in front of my eyes, and now that I have seen it, I can't unsee it. Maybe there are people who do, General Authorities seem to have all kinds of (most likely made-up) stories about people who left the Church for unspecified reasons and came back because they realized it is true after all.

But I can't. I've seen the sky is blue. I can demonstrate for myself 2+2 = 4. I can't choose to believe otherwise. So it is with the Church - I have seen how things really are. I can't choose to not see that now.

[Angel]

There are neat and tidy scientific laws that work out well in theory - and we call those laws "real"...

I think of those laws as the true "priesthood" power by which the universe was created, and continues to be created or create itself. The mystery is whether they are shadows of a Bigger Something, or whether the laws of nature are the creative force itself. Either way, I am in at least in as much awe of those forces as I ever was guy-on-throne-in-the-sky. If this apparent order of nature points to something greater, it must be equally significant and true for the 9-legged, 36-eyed slime-people of Betelgeuse 9. But I can understand why we might need to filter it through a lens that gives us an image we can relate to. Maybe guy-on-a-throne as a symbol for something more vast and alien than we can comprehend? If so, a mature understanding would be to recognize that we are looking at the shadow, not the actual caster of that shadow.

Shadows and voices from within: https://youtu.be/UnURElCzGc0
↑ we talk about flatland in CAD, orthographic views, projections, and interdimensional travel:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/6cpTEPT5i ... 48E1531DC7

[Angel]

2+2 = 5.

2+2=5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

[Hagoth]

Shadows and voices from within: https://youtu.be/UnURElCzGc0
↑ we talk about flatland in CAD, orthographic views, projections, and interdimensional travel:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/6cpTEPT5i ... 48E1531DC7

Good stuff.