NOM

You know we have talked before that when the church leaders say “God,” they really mean “the leaders of the church”. So, what he is really saying is that the church’s love for its members is conditional. And I totally agree with him.

alas wrote:You know we have talked before that when the church leaders say “God,” they really mean “the leaders of the church”. So, what he is really saying is that the church’s love for its members is conditional. And I totally agree with him.

That makes sense!


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I wonder how soon or if they will actually come out and say that God does not love us unconditionally? I see a lot of folks leaving over something like that so I think it will be presented in another way.

I guess Jesus don't want me for a sunbeam after all...

alas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:01 pm You know we have talked before that when the church leaders say “God,” they really mean “the leaders of the church”. So, what he is really saying is that the church’s love for its members is conditional. And I totally agree with him.

That's why the whole thing is messed up - conflating God with church, or religion with spirituality, and to me, what's going on here is a perverse take on the prosperity gospel, by equating God's blessings with his love. While it seems that the hardcore folks are going to buy the conflation of God/church and religion/spirituality, it's going to take some doing for many members to buy the last one. Maybe that's just evidence from my area and the echo chamber I tend to read online, but I'm not sure everybody is buying in on this latest Nelson project.

alas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:01 pm You know we have talked before that when the church leaders say “God,” they really mean “the leaders of the church”. So, what he is really saying is that the church’s love for its members is conditional. And I totally agree with him.

Very good point!

Limited love, limited acceptance, limited Christianity, full tithing.

My father was visiting our family this weekend. He is retired and now basically works full time in the temple.

In his prayer over the food on yesterday he thanked God for the gospel and the opportunity to be eternal families IF we follow the commandments.

I am pretty sure the mention was a dig at me since I was the only one of all of the family in town that didn't attend church that day. I just let it go and moved on.

An increased emphasis on "conditional love" will only serve to increase the hurt felt in mixed faith marriages and families with members that have left.

Hopefully this new emphasis will be something that can help my spouse figure out the Mormon church is wrong rather than adding one more wedge between us.

I 2nd your thoughts sincere inquirer !!! I was quietly hoping this would push my wife to see the tscc for what it really is. The idea that God's love is conditional is sooooooo Stupid. I like what others have mentioned that when the brethren say God they really mean the church leaders have conditional love but as always and previously mentioned Full Tithing !!!!

Mackman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:40 am I wonder how soon or if they will actually come out and say that God does not love us unconditionally? I see a lot of folks leaving over something like that so I think it will be presented in another way.

Russel Nelson wrote an article for the Ensign stating it clearly in 2003 here: Divine Love. I think it's been brought out a couple times since then too. The subheading for that article basically says exactly that -

While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:46 pm

Mackman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:40 am I wonder how soon or if they will actually come out and say that God does not love us unconditionally? I see a lot of folks leaving over something like that so I think it will be presented in another way.

Russel Nelson wrote an article for the Ensign stating it clearly in 2003 here: Divine Love. I think it's been brought out a couple times since then too. The subheading for that article basically says exactly that -

While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.

Does this mean we have it wrong expecting Gods love to be unconditional?

As a TBM, I assumed it was while subconsciously knowing it wasn’t. Yet I really never saw the dissonance in my own beliefs. Until I was no longer TBM.

How is it that our perspective changes?

The anger and need to critique?

Which brings up the same thoughts on forgiveness?

It’s just as conditional, isn’t it?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:04 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:46 pm

Mackman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 9:40 am I wonder how soon or if they will actually come out and say that God does not love us unconditionally? I see a lot of folks leaving over something like that so I think it will be presented in another way.

Russel Nelson wrote an article for the Ensign stating it clearly in 2003 here: Divine Love. I think it's been brought out a couple times since then too. The subheading for that article basically says exactly that -

While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.

Does this mean we have it wrong expecting Gods love to be unconditional?

As a TBM, I assumed it was while subconsciously knowing it wasn’t. Yet I really never saw the dissonance in my own beliefs. Until I was no longer TBM.

How is it that our perspective changes?

The anger and need to critique?

Which brings up the same thoughts on forgiveness?

It’s just as conditional, isn’t it?

The church does teach that forgiveness is 100% conditional. You are forgiven as long as you never do it again. Repeat the sin and it is the same as if you never repented. Rather than you repented and are doing the best you can not to do it again, but somehow your best efforts are not quite enough. Like yelling at my kids. I repented lots of times and I don’t think God invalidated my efforts because I lost my temper again.