NOM

Maybe I should say something about how I got back into this after decades of being a priesthood guy. Disaffection had something to do with it obviously, but that wasn't the catalyst.

Someone very close to me - immediate family member - went through a very long and difficult period of mental/emotional problems. After years and tens of thousands of dollars spent on psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists, treatments, and a vast spectrum of anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, whathaveya, they read Michael Pollan's book, and then passed it on to me and asked me if I would grow some mushrooms for them.

I cannot draw a direct line of cause and effect, of course, but I can report that this family member is now immeasurably happier, has shed most of their symptoms, is far more productive and successful, hasn't seen a therapist or psychiatrist for a couple of years, started dating again and is in a good relationship, has stopped requiring several medications, and is significantly more balanced and stable, not to mention kinder, more thoughtful, grateful and loving.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:53 am Whoever or whatever the Divine is sure makes it hard to be enlightened. Every one wants you to jump through hoops to get connected. Be nice to have a god who just would be willing to come have a chat with you. All the hype and drug induced euphoria is not my preference.


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Hagoth really nailed it as far as the Divine description. I went total athiest postMo, then mushrooms and other things have put me back into IDK land. The Pollan book "How to Change Your Mind" talked about the studies done with LSD and mushrooms and how religious people looking for god will often say they experienced interaction with an entity. This is the "Set" in set and setting; two things that are essential to the use of mushrooms. I shy away from mushrooms in a public setting, unless it's a microdose of 1g or less. I've never interacted with any entities in my deep fungus experiences, probably because I've settled on the fact there is no old man in the sky. However, I do feel there's a general/universal energy, possible consciousness in this existence, this reality or simulation; this is what you can tap into in your mind. My DW had interacted with entities, including one that represented her diseased father. This dad entity communicated with her, she talked out loud as she interacted with it; it was very cathartic and therapeutic.

Just a quick summary of my experiences: enjoy the benefits of microdosing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUWaZ_wxhhg), about a 10th of a gram every 2-3 days; barely feel it. Bigger trips are 2-3 times per year. A typical deep psychedelic experience is 4-6 hrs on 2-6g of fungus. It's a pretty big commitment to set aside a set and setting for that long, but it's worth it. I have a friend who has tried multiple times to OD on the fungus, he says it's not possible. He ate them until he threw up, sometimes over 10g. He really though he was going to die and felt like he did. This is the ego death that they invoke at Hopkins in the studies, 80% success rate with certain conditions like PTSD, addiction, anxieties, etc. Those folks typically never take another trip after what they call a Hero ego death trip. In the mid-range the typical experience can result in what I call ego confusion, you just don't know where or what you are. A true ego death is the actual fear or experience that you are dead and passed on, but then you come back. DMT is another plant substance that causes an ego death, but just in a few seconds or minutes, like hyperspace.

Best settings for me have been at home, hot tub was a great place to start. I like desert settings, like out on the shores of the GSL, with big cosmic earthly views of landscapes with few distractions.

These substances do NOT give you knowledge. They simply let you explore your own mind, stripping off a lot of the bias and normal life restrictions placed on the brain. As Hagoth showed, new neural connections that cause you to view reality differently. It's the hours and days after the trip you start to have new ideas based on the change in perspective.

There's quite a bit of data out there now to help folks. Even though I signed up with this new church and don't' really participate, I like the purpose and platform. But I feel like they might be painting a target on their backs for LDS corp. Hopefully their religious status will protect them; it's a brilliant move, using TSCC's protections to protect it against that entity.

Bottom line is, and this is the beautiful part of psychedelics: If anyone does a psychedelic trip and tells you have figured out or been given answers to life that apply to anyone other than themselves, walk away or call their bullshit. There is no secret alien knowledge from the cosmos that's for all of humanity, waiting for you in there, just your own mind and an opportunity to explore more of it that you would otherwise not be aware of. Hope this helps, good luck!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:06 pm
Take a look at this image that shows the activity of the brain before and during a psilocybin experience.

Yes, some faith traditions have used various substances - from native Americans to the Mayans etc. It should be noted that other faith traditions seek the opposite approach, one of clearing the mind of thoughts, being present, finding eternity in each moment.

So, my experience - there were quite a few people, no guides, not being safe, not even sure what all it was laced with. Started great, some mild hallucinations, patterns on furniture, dots in the air. Yes - I did see "spirits", re-focused my eyes and saw faces in the smoke in the room. I was told one of the people there whose mom was a witch who had given them 12 guardian spirits. I was seeing a few of them, they had angry faces, was told not to point them out to anyone else as others would freak out... another overheard conversation, saw them too, and started freaking out.... It does feel like your mind is enlightened, all these creative thoughts, making connections you had not seen before. We had a piece of paper in that apartment, and a pencil, and we were all writing all this stuff on it, wanting to remember our thoughts. I decided to do an experiment - I got some math homework out to tackle, I thought with my mind on fire like this, the HW would be a breeze. ..

I could not solve a single problem, not even simple problems. This is when I realized I was not expanding my mind, I was losing my mind.

There are visual trips, auditory trips, I ended the night with a bad body trip - heart racing, blacking out, thought I was going to die. Might have been spiked? should have been a guide there? I know know, lots of loop holes, but for me, it is not clarity, it is not mind expanding, it is mind destroying. .... I've had too many friends, watched their minds get erased. I will not even drink alcohol.

I told my kids, if you want to experience what being high is, "runner's high" is real, and the healthy way to experience it.

I much prefer the eastern meditation, peaceful, healthy, purposeful mind control.

To each their own... I know some need medication, drugs have saved people from suicide, and that is completely fine - everyone needs a coping mechanism. I support medical use of drugs, and think there are amazing things we can do if we understand our chemistry a bit more. I can feel my mood change with just vitamins and green-super-food drinks. "Hangry" to happy, sleepy to awake and engaged - I support learning body chemistry and what can help us be more alive. Have to be very careful with our minds though...

Even Ram Dass decided to quit by the end, found it to be a mirage, like walking through the dessert thinking it is getting you to something, but it is not water, it is just a mirage.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:40 am Maybe I should say something about how I got back into this after decades of being a priesthood guy. Disaffection had something to do with it obviously, but that wasn't the catalyst.

Someone very close to me - immediate family member - went through a very long and difficult period of mental/emotional problems. After years and tens of thousands of dollars spent on psychiatrists, psychologists, neurologists, treatments, and a vast spectrum of anti-depressants, mood stabilizers, whathaveya, they read Michael Pollan's book, and then passed it on to me and asked me if I would grow some mushrooms for them.

I cannot draw a direct line of cause and effect, of course, but I can report that this family member is now immeasurably happier, has shed most of their symptoms, is far more productive and successful, hasn't seen a therapist or psychiatrist for a couple of years, started dating again and is in a good relationship, has stopped requiring several medications, and is significantly more balanced and stable, not to mention kinder, more thoughtful, grateful and loving.

That is amazing!

stuck wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:44 pm That is amazing!

Of course, there's no way of knowing how much of that is due to the psilocybin, but there's also no denying that it was a significant catalyst. Although big strides are being made toward incorporating psilocybin as a therapeutic treatment I can't help but remain a bit skeptical, just because the effects are so variable from person to person and experience to experience. It will be fascinating to watch what happens over the next decade or so.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:53 am I've never interacted with any entities in my deep fungus experiences, probably because I've settled on the fact there is no old man in the sky...

...If anyone does a psychedelic trip and tells you have figured out or been given answers to life that apply to anyone other than themselves, walk away or call their bullshit.

I have encountered a number of entities but I never took them seriously as actual beings. I think of it as a trickster god aspect of your own brain.

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:37 pm Even Ram Dass decided to quit by the end, found it to be a mirage, like walking through the dessert thinking it is getting you to something, but it is not water, it is just a mirage.

thanks for sharing that, Angel.

There is no question that what we're talking about here is a tool, not a destination. The thing that is shocking to me is that people like Ram Dass could do so much psychedelics over so many years in the first place. From what I have seen, people who use these substances responsibly come to a point where they use them occasionally as a sort of booster. I haven't done a massive dose for a long time, and maybe never will again, but I do not foresee giving up smaller doses - the kind you can take and go for a long walk in nature. I use them for what some have called "shaking the snow globe." Think of that diagram of brain activity that I posted earlier. The snow analogy is that you think the same kinds of things in the same way and it's kind of like walking paths in the snow. You keep taking the same paths over and over again because they're worn into the snow. Then you shake the snow globe and the paths disappear, so you have to make new ones that will be slightly different. All I know is that always feel fantastic in the week following a trip and it's easier for me to "feel the spirit" in nature.

I would not be surprised if the stuff you took was tainted. There are idiots out there who think soaking mushrooms in a stimulant is a good idea. The same kind of people who drink alcoholic energy drinks, I suppose. Some of the mushrooms people buy out of China even have toxic levels of contaminants like lead. Gotta grow your own or get it from a trusted grower. It sounds like there might have been some set and setting problems there too.

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:37 pm So, my experience - there were quite a few people, no guides, not being safe, not even sure what all it was laced with. Started great, some mild hallucinations, patterns on furniture, dots in the air. Yes - I did see "spirits", re-focused my eyes and saw faces in the smoke in the room. I was told one of the people there whose mom was a witch who had given them 12 guardian spirits. I was seeing a few of them, they had angry faces, was told not to point them out to anyone else as others would freak out... another overheard conversation, saw them too, and started freaking out.... It does feel like your mind is enlightened, all these creative thoughts, making connections you had not seen before. We had a piece of paper in that apartment, and a pencil, and we were all writing all this stuff on it, wanting to remember our thoughts. I decided to do an experiment - I got some math homework out to tackle, I thought with my mind on fire like this, the HW would be a breeze. ..

Thanks for sharing this. This is a good example of a bad setting. Seems like most folks I know who tried mushrooms when they were younger have this experience of taking shrooms at a party or Burning Man event and having a really bad trip. But I'd agree with Hagoth that it sounds like you got something besides the fungus going there.

I never do big trips around lots of people and never with someone I'm not close to and trust. I have taken 1g or less in public. But even at home, I've had some really uncomfortable hallucinations on a few of my deepest trips, but also some unbelievably real imagery of mathematical cosmic fractals, undulating in shapes and colors, biological apparatus, crazy purple energy patterns of random symbols. What does all that mean? Probably that I spend too much time watching science videos on YouTube.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:46 am

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:37 pm Even Ram Dass decided to quit by the end, found it to be a mirage, like walking through the dessert thinking it is getting you to something, but it is not water, it is just a mirage.

thanks for sharing that, Angel.

There is no question that what we're talking about here is a tool, not a destination. The thing that is shocking to me is that people like Ram Dass could do so much psychedelics over so many years in the first place. From what I have seen, people who use these substances responsibly come to a point where they use them occasionally as a sort of booster. I haven't done a massive dose for a long time, and maybe never will again, but I do not foresee giving up smaller doses - the kind you can take and go for a long walk in nature. I use them for what some have called "shaking the snow globe." Think of that diagram of brain activity that I posted earlier. The snow analogy is that you think the same kinds of things in the same way and it's kind of like walking paths in the snow. You keep taking the same paths over and over again because they're worn into the snow. Then you shake the snow globe and the paths disappear, so you have to make new ones that will be slightly different. All I know is that always feel fantastic in the week following a trip and it's easier for me to "feel the spirit" in nature.

I would not be surprised if the stuff you took was tainted. There are idiots out there who think soaking mushrooms in a stimulant is a good idea. The same kind of people who drink alcoholic energy drinks, I suppose. Some of the mushrooms people buy out of China even have toxic levels of contaminants like lead. Gotta grow your own or get it from a trusted grower. It sounds like there might have been some set and setting problems there too.

I am reading Ram Dass biography right now, he shares an interesting account of his mentor Maharaj-ji. Shortly after their acquaintance, language barriers etc. Maharaj-ji asked about Ram Dass' vitamins... Was given 300+g LSD, then requested another, and another, threw all 3 in mouth -900+ and Ram Dass was worried, hoping things would be ok, standing by etc. So he waits, and waits, and nothing ever happens - Maharaj-ji goes about day as usual, the drugs had absolutely no effect on him as far as Ram Dass could tell. Ram's conclusion was that Maharaj-ji was already living in spiritual realm far deeper than where any drugs could take you. Fascinating.

Now starting to learn about Yogananda

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:41 am

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:37 pm So, my experience - there were quite a few people, no guides, not being safe, not even sure what all it was laced with. Started great, some mild hallucinations, patterns on furniture, dots in the air. Yes - I did see "spirits", re-focused my eyes and saw faces in the smoke in the room. I was told one of the people there whose mom was a witch who had given them 12 guardian spirits. I was seeing a few of them, they had angry faces, was told not to point them out to anyone else as others would freak out... another overheard conversation, saw them too, and started freaking out.... It does feel like your mind is enlightened, all these creative thoughts, making connections you had not seen before. We had a piece of paper in that apartment, and a pencil, and we were all writing all this stuff on it, wanting to remember our thoughts. I decided to do an experiment - I got some math homework out to tackle, I thought with my mind on fire like this, the HW would be a breeze. ..

Thanks for sharing this. This is a good example of a bad setting. Seems like most folks I know who tried mushrooms when they were younger have this experience of taking shrooms at a party or Burning Man event and having a really bad trip. But I'd agree with Hagoth that it sounds like you got something besides the fungus going there.

I never do big trips around lots of people and never with someone I'm not close to and trust. I have taken 1g or less in public. But even at home, I've had some really uncomfortable hallucinations on a few of my deepest trips, but also some unbelievably real imagery of mathematical cosmic fractals, undulating in shapes and colors, biological apparatus, crazy purple energy patterns of random symbols. What does all that mean? Probably that I spend too much time watching science videos on YouTube.

Yes - people were climbing out the windows, and climbing up the outside of building, I thought someone was going to die, expecting cops to show up any minute haha. Started with close friends, was chaos by end, not a good setting!!

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:42 pm 900+

Ho Lee Cow. That's 9x what I have experienced. I'm not going to say it's totally out of the question that he might have palmed it to teach Ram some kind of lesson. But who knows. If he could take that much with no effect then he really was living in a different realm.

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:45 pm Yes - people were climbing out the windows, and climbing up the outside of building, I thought someone was going to die, expecting cops to show up any minute haha. Started with close friends, was chaos by end, not a good setting!!

Kinda sounds like what happened at the Morley farm after Joseph administered his special sacramental wine!

Angel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:42 pm I am reading Ram Dass biography right now...

...Now starting to learn about Yogananda

I hope you will share some highlights with us.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:18 am

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am Sam Harris seems to speak of these psychedelic experiences in a similar way - that they help the person experiencing them to better see what's real about themself. I struggle to accept the claim. It seems to be a completely subjective experience that does not justify the claim that it helps better understand reality. It clearly allows a person to see things differently, but is there a way to explain that the different or new perspective is closer to reality?

I think the short answer to that is no. It is a very subjective experience. What it shows you is that there is much more depth to your ability to feel and perceive your own reality than what you get through your normal senses. One problem is that people experience something and think they can pass that on as knowledge to other people. I look at it more like the discussion we were having about NDEs. I'm a skeptic of the supernatural claims but if someone has a personal experience that makes them happier, kinder, and more understanding I say good for them! (ETA: I say the same thing about Mormonism, but I think psychedelics deliver more consistently). Maybe it really does help you understand reality better, but who knows. Personally, I think it does because it makes you feel like part of something much larger and inter-connected and it shatters false illusions like authority and hierarchical social values.

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am For example, is it that some have not really considered some aspect of themself (i.e. the subconscious) as a part of who they are, and the psychedelic experience opened that consideration to them? I think I would accept that as a justified claim. Or am I missing the point of what you're saying altogether, so my question is irrelevant?

I'm not sure I understand the question. If nothing else, it lets you see that your ego is not who you are. The little tyrant gets pushed aside to make some room for the vast inner space around it.

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am Side note:
My understanding is that at least some psychedelics have risks for mental and emotional health. I'm not sure if psilocybin is among those, but it might be worth considering before deciding to use.

I will say that psychedelics are certainly not for everyone, or at least not until they can put themselves in a place that allows their ego to take a back seat and accept whatever the internal cosmos throws at you. If you are latently schizophrenic or something like that, as I understand it, psychedelics can bring that to the surface. You shouldn't do it if you're using antidepressants or other mental health prescriptions. For one thing, they will suppress the psychedelic effects. And no alcohol either. It obliterates the effect.

Some things to consider. Most psychedelics cannot be overdosed. People have accidentally or intentionally taken doses that are 100 times recommended levels with no ill effects. Psychedelics are not addictive. In fact, the more you take the less effect they have. Most people get to a place where they only do it a couple of times a year, or even every few years.

As far as physical danger, take a look at this chart:
DrugDeaths.jpeg
The thin gray one-pixel-thick line at the top labeled is a sloppy collection of that includes Psilocybin, LSD, DMT, Ayahuasca, Peyote, San Pedro, Cannabis, 5-MEO DMT, Datura, and all other psychedelic and hallucinogenic substances. A few of these, like Datura (Joseph Smith's preferred wine additive?) can be poisonous. Note that it also includes opium! I assume this means pure smoked opium (which should definitely NOT be included in this category!). I have never heard of anyone dying from Psilocybin, LSD, etc, despite the propaganda films we watched in church back in the 70s.

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am I want to be clear that I’m not arguing against using psychedelics. I’m just encouraging a look at the risks as well as the benefits.

And I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating for the individual use of psychedelics. Just passing on information. I am, however, advocating for the decriminalization of substances that do NOT fit the definition of Schedule 1 drugs. That classification requires that a substance is addictive and has no clinical/therapeutic value. How is it that alcohol and tobacco are not on that list, but psilocybin, which has been officially classified by the FDA as a breakthrough therapy remains?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:18 am

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am Sam Harris seems to speak of these psychedelic experiences in a similar way - that they help the person experiencing them to better see what's real about themself. I struggle to accept the claim. It seems to be a completely subjective experience that does not justify the claim that it helps better understand reality. It clearly allows a person to see things differently, but is there a way to explain that the different or new perspective is closer to reality?

I think the short answer to that is no. It is a very subjective experience. What it shows you is that there is much more depth to your ability to feel and perceive your own reality than what you get through your normal senses. One problem is that people experience something and think they can pass that on as knowledge to other people. I look at it more like the discussion we were having about NDEs. I'm a skeptic of the supernatural claims but if someone has a personal experience that makes them happier, kinder, and more understanding I say good for them! (ETA: I say the same thing about Mormonism, but I think psychedelics deliver more consistently). Maybe it really does help you understand reality better, but who knows. Personally, I think it does because it makes you feel like part of something much larger and inter-connected and it shatters false illusions like authority and hierarchical social values.

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am For example, is it that some have not really considered some aspect of themself (i.e. the subconscious) as a part of who they are, and the psychedelic experience opened that consideration to them? I think I would accept that as a justified claim. Or am I missing the point of what you're saying altogether, so my question is irrelevant?

I'm not sure I understand the question. If nothing else, it lets you see that your ego is not who you are. The little tyrant gets pushed aside to make some room for the vast inner space around it.

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am Side note:
My understanding is that at least some psychedelics have risks for mental and emotional health. I'm not sure if psilocybin is among those, but it might be worth considering before deciding to use.

I will say that psychedelics are certainly not for everyone, or at least not until they can put themselves in a place that allows their ego to take a back seat and accept whatever the internal cosmos throws at you. If you are latently schizophrenic or something like that, as I understand it, psychedelics can bring that to the surface. You shouldn't do it if you're using antidepressants or other mental health prescriptions. For one thing, they will suppress the psychedelic effects. And no alcohol either. It obliterates the effect.

Some things to consider. Most psychedelics cannot be overdosed. People have accidentally or intentionally taken doses that are 100 times recommended levels with no ill effects. Psychedelics are not addictive. In fact, the more you take the less effect they have. Most people get to a place where they only do it a couple of times a year, or even every few years.

As far as physical danger, take a look at this chart:
DrugDeaths.jpeg
The thin gray one-pixel-thick line at the top labeled is a sloppy collection of that includes Psilocybin, LSD, DMT, Ayahuasca, Peyote, San Pedro, Cannabis, 5-MEO DMT, Datura, and all other psychedelic and hallucinogenic substances. A few of these, like Datura (Joseph Smith's preferred wine additive?) can be poisonous. Note that it also includes opium! I assume this means pure smoked opium (which should definitely NOT be included in this category!). I have never heard of anyone dying from Psilocybin, LSD, etc, despite the propaganda films we watched in church back in the 70s.

annotatedbom wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:02 am I want to be clear that I’m not arguing against using psychedelics. I’m just encouraging a look at the risks as well as the benefits.

And I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating for the individual use of psychedelics. Just passing on information. I am, however, advocating for the decriminalization of substances that do NOT fit the definition of Schedule 1 drugs. That classification requires that a substance is addictive and has no clinical/therapeutic value. How is it that alcohol and tobacco are not on that list, but psilocybin, which has been officially classified by the FDA as a breakthrough therapy remains?

Sounds like you and I are on pretty much the same page on all of this. Even though my one question was unintelligible, your answer "If nothing else, it lets you see that your ego is not who you are. The little tyrant gets pushed aside to make some room for the vast inner space around it." seems to get at what I was trying to ask.

And, I'm totally with you on decriminalizing the psychedelics. Apparently Portugal decriminalized all drugs in small amounts. My understanding is that this wasn't to set up a free-for-all drug party. In fact, it seems they realized their war on drugs was failing and death by heroin was rampant, so they made a resource shift from criminal and corrections enforcement to social services support for those with narcotics problems, but I digress. My point is, if decriminalization may work in the right circumstances for hard-core drugs like heroin, then I think we could probably craft better policy regarding psychedelics by decriminalizing them in practical ways.

Not mushrooms, but I've found Ketamine to very helpful in combating severe depressive episodes (administered in a Doctor's office, of course).

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:12 pm Not mushrooms, but I've found Ketamine to very helpful in combating severe depressive episodes (administered in a Doctor's office, of course).

I'm really glad to hear that, Stig. I'm glad Ketamine was able to slip through the cracks and get into a therapeutic channel. I've only tried it once, just out of curiosity, and I think I took too much. The space around me was shrinking and growing and moving around so much that it made me motion sick.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:20 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:12 pm Not mushrooms, but I've found Ketamine to very helpful in combating severe depressive episodes (administered in a Doctor's office, of course).

I'm really glad to hear that, Stig. I'm glad Ketamine was able to slip through the cracks and get into a therapeutic channel. I've only tried it once, just out of curiosity, and I think I took too much. The space around me was shrinking and growing and moving around so much that it made me motion sick.

It's definitely an...interesting...experience. The first time I was treated with it, I was pretty weirded out with how dissociative the experience was. However, the next couple of days I felt better than I had in years and was able to perform at a level professionally in an arbitration setting that I hadn't thought possible again. It was a revelation (pun intended).

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:56 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:20 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:12 pm Not mushrooms, but I've found Ketamine to very helpful in combating severe depressive episodes (administered in a Doctor's office, of course).

I'm really glad to hear that, Stig. I'm glad Ketamine was able to slip through the cracks and get into a therapeutic channel. I've only tried it once, just out of curiosity, and I think I took too much. The space around me was shrinking and growing and moving around so much that it made me motion sick.

It's definitely an...interesting...experience. The first time I was treated with it, I was pretty weirded out with how dissociative the experience was. However, the next couple of days I felt better than I had in years and was able to perform at a level professionally in an arbitration setting that I hadn't thought possible again. It was a revelation (pun intended).

Your experience, Stig, is the thing that intrigues me.

I've heard a few "famous" people on podcasts talk about fungus experiences where they had an awful "trip" and were never going to touch the stuff again. Until some time later when they realize that something in their brain has fundamentally changed and they are much better humans than they were before the "bad trip." Mental illness type issues have changed, human interaction issues have changed, etc. All for the better.

These "famous" folks are not "movie stars" or anything of the sort if that's what anyone is thinking. Very successful business people, authors, doctors, etc.

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:37 pm for me, it is not clarity, it is not mind expanding, it is mind destroying. .... I've had too many friends, watched their minds get erased. I will not even drink alcohol.

I think it’s impossible to know how any of the substances really interact with a person without doing it many times. Set and setting is such a powerful factor that the experimenting novice is asking for problems such as what you experienced.

I’ve had beautiful, welcoming, warm experiences that gave me profound insight, and yet just changing rooms in my home set off a “bad trip”. I went from my very carefully prepared trip room to my kitchen and anxiety and fear set in immediately. Walked back to the other room, instantly gone.

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:37 pm
I much prefer the eastern meditation, peaceful, healthy, purposeful mind control.


Even Ram Dass decided to quit by the end, found it to be a mirage, like walking through the dessert thinking it is getting you to something, but it is not water, it is just a mirage.

I too am a serious mediation practicier. It goes both ways though. Most leading modern spiritual/meditation teachers first set off on their path using entheogens. It was often these substances that showed them what to look for and motivated them to have a regular meditation practice. having a solid meditation practice and bring this into their daily life.
People often meditate for years, even decades, without really knowing what it is they are looking for. One powerful trip can dissolve the ego and shatter the illusion of self in a way that allows the meditator to see what meditation is trying to show us. Its not about relaxing, being grounded, etc, but realization that the true self is right there, we just thought the mirror we were looking into was really.

But these does seem to be a point where most people feel they have learned what they could from these substances and it’s time to kind of move on. Just being alive is such a profoundly beautiful thing to experience. Knowing your true self and just allowing yourself to see it each day is the true insight.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:10 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:56 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:20 pm

I'm really glad to hear that, Stig. I'm glad Ketamine was able to slip through the cracks and get into a therapeutic channel. I've only tried it once, just out of curiosity, and I think I took too much. The space around me was shrinking and growing and moving around so much that it made me motion sick.

It's definitely an...interesting...experience. The first time I was treated with it, I was pretty weirded out with how dissociative the experience was. However, the next couple of days I felt better than I had in years and was able to perform at a level professionally in an arbitration setting that I hadn't thought possible again. It was a revelation (pun intended).

Your experience, Stig, is the thing that intrigues me.

I've heard a few "famous" people on podcasts talk about fungus experiences where they had an awful "trip" and were never going to touch the stuff again. Until some time later when they realize that something in their brain has fundamentally changed and they are much better humans than they were before the "bad trip." Mental illness type issues have changed, human interaction issues have changed, etc. All for the better.

These "famous" folks are not "movie stars" or anything of the sort if that's what anyone is thinking. Very successful business people, authors, doctors, etc.

Now that I know what to expect, it's not disconcerting at all anymore. It's still very dissociative; I sit there and move my feet, but I'm not actually convinced they're my feet. It also makes me VERY chatty and I get REALLY high disclosure. The nurses who have been attending to my treatments know way more about me than they should! At this point, I'm really only using it on an emergent basis and it's been at least 6 months since I last needed it. Clearly, I have chronic depression and I treat it with a daily med, but the Ketamine is there if/when I hit those REALLY deep valleys and just can't seem to get out in any conventional way.