NOM

No magic anymore...we're all just muggles now.

I need to get me a divining rod/rock and hat starter kit to take to SS. That could help better understand the lessons. Anyone know when the divining rods went out of fashion with church leaders?

I've added a link where you too can get your own divining rod from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I0E1TOS?psc=1

2bizE wrote:I need to get me a divining rod/rock and hat starter kit to take to SS. That could help better understand the lessons. Anyone know when the divining rods went out of fashion with church leaders?

Here is one place they still somewhat exist: The Coffin Canes of Joseph Smith. They were supposed to have powers to heal and probably do other things normally attributed to the Melchizedek priesthood. The Daughters of the Utah Pioneers have one on display at their museum.

Corsair wrote:

2bizE wrote:I need to get me a divining rod/rock and hat starter kit to take to SS. That could help better understand the lessons. Anyone know when the divining rods went out of fashion with church leaders?

Here is one place they still somewhat exist: The Coffin Canes of Joseph Smith. They were supposed to have powers to heal and probably do other things normally attributed to the Melchizedek priesthood. The Daughters of the Utah Pioneers have one on display at their museum.

I did not know about the coffin canes. Interesting how early leaders claimed the canes had magical powers perhaps like moses' staff.

Even if the coffin cane doesn't heal, it's good for hitting pit-Bulls when they hump your leg.

Zadok wrote:Even if the coffin cane doesn't heal, it's good for hitting pit-Bulls when they hump your leg.

So they should have been given to Brigham's and Heber's wives?

Hagoth wrote:

Zadok wrote:Even if the coffin cane doesn't heal, it's good for hitting pit-Bulls when they hump your leg.

So they should have been given to Brigham's and Heber's wives?

Whatever powers that might be attributed to canes, I am confident that this would not be part of their expected abilities. Surely the treatment of women in D&C 132 would not be mitigated simply by canes from Joseph's coffin.

Corsair wrote:

Hagoth wrote:
This leads to crucial problem that appears to be unresolvable. How would we tell that the "loose" vs. "tight" translation of prayers/scripture/ordinances is correct? Mormons are incessantly concerned about the supreme importance of ordinances. How could we possibly detect that some "ordinance" did not work? If exact verbiage is crucial for salvation, then exact policing of ordinances needs to be controlled and somehow "tested" for accuracy. If some loose variance is allowed, then why are Mormons so profoundly confident that other baptisms are wrong? How could we determine that Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, and those polygamous FLDS are wrong and the ordinances must be performed by the explicit authority of the institutional LDS church headed by Tom Monson? How would we ever actually know?

I think you are dead on in this point Corsair, and it leads to the important challenge about the church in general. If it is the actual kingdom of god, then we dammmmmmwelllll better be exact, get every word right, believe everything literally, and kill ourselves being obedient to every word which comes down from the mountain. However, we then have to decide that we can't be too literal, because then we would have to believe the world was created in seven days, the ark saved all animal and plant life now on the earth, people live on the moon,JS and his DW emma were a happy couple, the book of Abraham is a correctly translated book of scripture, etc. etc. ad nauseum. You also have to decide who's incantations you have to believe. Never the dead prophet's but only the living ones.

I believe magic is alive and well in all truly believing members. Blessings which are only valid if done by a "worthy" male priesthood holder surely bring magical er, miraculous results, young elders and sisters speak with the magical gift of tongues, and our bodies are magically protected by all kinds of nasty things if we wear the proper armor of god.
If we don't eat or drink the devil's substances like an espresso (yum) then we can run and not be weary and leap large buildings in a single bound.
If we pay our toll, we will have more money then we can carry around with a wheel barrow. If we just do it all, and give it all until we die, god will magically give us everything he has and allow us all to do this to our zillions of children. Used to make me feel all happy inside but now I just feel like I need to hurl.

Hagoth wrote: If Harry Potter has taught us anything it's that you have to say the words just right for the magic to work.

That's the way it was in 12th grade play practice. If you didn't get the line right the drama teacher made you do it over until you got it right.

Hagoth wrote:This leads to crucial problem that appears to be unresolvable. How would we tell that the "loose" vs. "tight" translation of prayers/scripture/ordinances is correct?

I was taught that a gentleman does not discuss loose vs tight in public.

Zadok wrote:

Hagoth wrote:This leads to crucial problem that appears to be unresolvable. How would we tell that the "loose" vs. "tight" translation of prayers/scripture/ordinances is correct?

I was taught that a gentleman does not discuss loose vs tight in public.

You can discuss it in a bishop's office though.

Zadok wrote:

Spicy McHaggis wrote:I was taught that a gentleman does not discuss loose vs tight in public.

You can discuss it in a bishop's office though.

There is increasing concern over bishops sending out text messages to youths concerning their "tight vs. loose" application of LDS moral standards.

Corsair wrote:

Zadok wrote:

Spicy McHaggis wrote:I was taught that a gentleman does not discuss loose vs tight in public.

You can discuss it in a bishop's office though.

There is increasing concern over bishops sending out text messages to youths concerning their "tight vs. loose" application of LDS moral standards.

As though closed door meetings alone with adolescents to talk about sexual behaviors shouldn't have been enough to prompt increasing concerns. What a weird organization I belong to. Anyway, I've seen some things here and there in discussion groups about bishops sending texts to youth, is this a concern that is going to gain any traction, or just another inappropriate thing we all get to lament here without much more attention being paid to it?

Not Buying It wrote:As though closed door meetings alone with adolescents to talk about sexual behaviors shouldn't have been enough to prompt increasing concerns. What a weird organization I belong to. Anyway, I've seen some things here and there in discussion groups about bishops sending texts to youth, is this a concern that is going to gain any traction, or just another inappropriate thing we all get to lament here without much more attention being paid to it?

There has been a call on Reddit to document and screenshot if your bishop has texted you any "worthiness" questions. This is definitely something that could end up being a news worthy embarrassment to the LDS church. I can easily see that bishops and ward leaders get an injunction to cut that out because it is material evidence that could show up in a civil lawsuit.

wtfluff wrote:

MoPag wrote:

Spicy McHaggis wrote:Just as believable as seer stones.

Or consecrated oil, or bread and water that have been blessed with priesthood power. It's all magic. Just not magic you are familiar with.

This. ^^

It's ALL based on magic. (Which is why it doesn't work.)

It works - sometimes - because it's based on the placebo effect mostly.
Yet, who of us can say we understand every possibility in every dimension of quantum mechanics and other unseen but real influences?

Newme wrote:

wtfluff wrote:

MoPag wrote: Or consecrated oil, or bread and water that have been blessed with priesthood power. It's all magic. Just not magic you are familiar with.

This. ^^

It's ALL based on magic. (Which is why it doesn't work.)

It works - sometimes - because it's based on the placebo effect mostly.

So you're telling me there's a chance!

Gonna have to remember this when my Alzheimer's kicks in. Then again, it's Alzheimer's, so remembering might be a problem...

Zadok wrote:I was taught that a gentleman does not discuss loose vs tight in public.

"Land o' Goshen, Heber! It's 1 AM. Where's you all been?"

"Just out getting tight, Vilate."

moksha wrote:"Land o' Goshen, Heber! It's 1 AM. Where's you all been?"

"Just out getting tight, Vilate."

The natural continuation of this satirical dialog gets creepy really quickly, involving the euphemism "a few months shy of fifteen".

wtfluff wrote:

Newme wrote:

wtfluff wrote: This. ^^

It's ALL based on magic. (Which is why it doesn't work.)

It works - sometimes - because it's based on the placebo effect mostly.

So you're telling me there's a chance!

Gonna have to remember this when my Alzheimer's kicks in. Then again, it's Alzheimer's, so remembering might be a problem...

Still, you remind me of what I often wonder: Why do so many ignore the placebo effect?
The placebo effect is not some magic that has no influence - it's real - real enough that FDA requires medications be tested against it.

Newme wrote:

wtfluff wrote:

Newme wrote: It works - sometimes - because it's based on the placebo effect mostly.

So you're telling me there's a chance!

Gonna have to remember this when my Alzheimer's kicks in. Then again, it's Alzheimer's, so remembering might be a problem...

Still, you remind me of what I often wonder: Why do so many ignore the placebo effect?
The placebo effect is not some magic that has no influence - it's real - real enough that FDA requires medications be tested against it.

Will the placebo effect actually help when my Alzheimer's kicks in?

Can the placebo effect cure cancer?

I think we both know the answer to those two questions. I do believe the placebo effect can "help" a bit in some situations. I also know that the placebo effect cannot in fact cure diseases like Alzheimer's and cancer. Neither can magic oil, or magic incantations combined with magic oil, or magic wands (rods of Aaron,) or magic rocks, or "prophets seers and revelators," or asking an invisible alien with super-powers who lives near kolob.