NOM

Angel wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:52 pm I was the 1st out of the church in our marriage. Some dark stuff with abuse of kids by brother-in-law, and DH had a few issues that I kicked him out of the house for. I was prepared for divorce, am able to support myself and kids - have a really good job and work community that has been my salvation through it all. I gave him another chance, he came back changed. Our entire family is out of the church now, thank goodness. I'm not sure how long it will last, but right now everything is really good. It took kicking him out, hitting rock bottom etc.

Silence is not a good thing. Each situation is unique... the right thing to do is usually the hard thing to do. A healthy relashionship is not codependent... I think it's better when you realize you are just fine on your own. You can think more logically, less emotion, if you are not insecure and 100% fine being on your own. They are more polite when they know you don't "need" them. Seems like needing someone =codependent. The saying - put your own airmask on first before you worry about others applies I think. All relashionships improve when you are 100% self-reliant, financially and emotionally self-reliant. Take care of yourself, then you can better interact with others in my opinion.

Best wishes, good to read everyone's words of wisdom.

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:05 am I feel for you, deepthinker, and hope things work out.

I think you've been given some good advice, and I'll just add a little based on experience, research, and training. Understand that all we have to go on is one side, and just bits and pieces of that side.

Something that gives me hope for your marriage is that you say she seeks physical affection, which presumably is her primary love language. If she still wants to cuddle, that's something. She still wants to love you and be loved by you. Let's stay with the love language idea. So what's yours? You say you want deep conversations and emotional acceptance, but what does that mean, really? What is deep? What does emotional acceptance look like, really? I would argue she also wants emotional acceptance and she's seeking it through physical touch. Based on what you've said, I would guess your primary love language might be affirmation, or words of affirmation. How would it feel for her to compliment you, to express admiration for the rough spiritual journey you've gone through? She might not be one who can bite into a religious or intellectual discussion with gusto, but she can acknowledge your intelligence, your thought process. I may be way off, but my guess is that it might be more simple than you're making it.

As much as I respect Alas's wisdom and thoughts on this, I am not sure attaching to a priesthood holder (or status/wealth provider) is so much a love language in and of itself, but maybe a manifestation of the language of gifts. That being said, I've wondered if "achievement" could be a love language for some--feeling love when your sig other achieves goals that are important to you. I'm interested in what other love languages there might be... my wife used to think hers wasn't identified by Chapman and maybe she's right, but eventually we figured out that what she thought was more unique could be a form of quality time. We don't want to bend a language to fit Chapman's five, but I do think he was pretty astute and the five do seem to be pretty ubiquitous. I DO believe that many TBM wives feel a very strong desire for a righteous priesthood holder, which seems obvious based on our doctrine. I don't believe having one necessarily fills their emotional bucket, though, which may be part of the reason why there are so many depressed TBM wives.

But back to Deepthinker's dilemma... I know I'm just a stranger on a forum, but I would encourage you to take heart in the fact she's still seeking to feel love with you. My suspicion is that she isn't as much unwilling or unable to fill yours, but is ignorant. I suspect you need affirmation and quality time. Quality time isn't necessarily quantity, and quality time needs differ from one person to another, I've found. My wife likes long drives in the car just being together, which drives me nuts. I want to have deep conversations on the drive. She does not. If she's driving, she gets annoyed if I'm on my phone. She doesn't necessarily want to talk to me, but she wants me present with her. It boggles my mind, but there it is.

I have also learned that building one's own foundation of self worth and self esteem helps greatly. You don't have to get everything from your spouse. We know that, but sometimes it helps to have someone else point it out to us. In this day and age, for whatever reason, we turn to our sig other for more things, such as conversation, emotional support, validation, than we ever did in the past. Our outside support has shrunk, on average. This places more emphasis on that relationship to meet multiple needs. Despite having social media up the wazoo, research suggests that we still rely on our spouses for much more than our parents and grandparents did. So, maybe a more realistic appraisal of our expectations may be warranted. Maybe.

Finally, I don't put much stock in the myers-briggs personality test. If it helps, sure why not.. but it's lacking in validity. Also, regarding personality... It may be more beneficial to look at how people are able to step outside their "type" when their backs are against the wall, or when they have to act in a way that's uncomfortable for them.

Good luck with your marriage. I should have started by saying that while I'm a mental health professional with advanced degrees, I'm definitely not a marriage therapist, so take any advice with a big grain of salt. I would suggest that you continue trying to show her love in her languages, and get better at expressing what you need, but for her sake make it something real and tangible. What can she do.. specifically. Don't tell her you need emotional support, cuz she doesn't (and I wouldn't) know what the hell that means. Give her something she can do, and make sure she understands how that would look like, and that how that makes you feel. Love snowballs. It's completely possible for two people to love each other and not share religious beliefs. People do it all the time.

Also... Alas likely has more experience with this sort of thing, so keep listening to her.

alas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:24 pm I read through Cnsl1’s post just because it was new, then glanced back to the original post and between the two, it triggered a thought.

I think Cnsl1 is correct that your wife doesn’t know how to help you feel supported emotionally. Then I saw when you talked about being suicidal. Yup, that is an example of her trying to help, but falling on her face because she doesnt know how.

One experience in my own marriage was that I would be feeling something, doesn’t matter what. Instead of hearing me, I felt like he was blaming me or criticizing me. When we had played that game lots of times we backed up and looked at what was happening. He felt like he WAS helping by trying to fix the problem. Well, he was no more capable of fixing things than he was of flying, but he thought what I needed was the problem fixed. Like your wife saw the depression as because you had pulled away from the church and so she told you how she would fix it if she was in that situation. But she was wrong both about what you needed from her, and the root of the problem. She isn’t you, so how she thinks she would fix the problem doesn’t work for you. It might work for her if she is depressed, but it just made you feel worse because she didn’t get it.

So, back to me and my husband. I told him that he cannot fix things and I don’t want him to try. I want him to just shut the f up and listen. Just listen and tell me he is hearing me. That he hears how I feel. That he sees me struggle with it. That he is trying to understand. He needs to ask questions about what he hears me say, to make sure he is understanding. NOT try to fix it. He is a fixer. He wants solutions, not empathy. So he was offering me his solutions, rather than offering empathy.

So, your wife might be a fixer, rather than a listener. If that is the case, Teach her how to stop trying to fix things and just listen and communicate that she is listening.

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:56 pm

alas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:24 pm I read through Cnsl1’s post just because it was new, then glanced back to the original post and between the two, it triggered a thought.

I think Cnsl1 is correct that your wife doesn’t know how to help you feel supported emotionally. Then I saw when you talked about being suicidal. Yup, that is an example of her trying to help, but falling on her face because she doesnt know how.

One experience in my own marriage was that I would be feeling something, doesn’t matter what. Instead of hearing me, I felt like he was blaming me or criticizing me. When we had played that game lots of times we backed up and looked at what was happening. He felt like he WAS helping by trying to fix the problem. Well, he was no more capable of fixing things than he was of flying, but he thought what I needed was the problem fixed. Like your wife saw the depression as because you had pulled away from the church and so she told you how she would fix it if she was in that situation. But she was wrong both about what you needed from her, and the root of the problem. She isn’t you, so how she thinks she would fix the problem doesn’t work for you. It might work for her if she is depressed, but it just made you feel worse because she didn’t get it.

So, back to me and my husband. I told him that he cannot fix things and I don’t want him to try. I want him to just shut the f up and listen. Just listen and tell me he is hearing me. That he hears how I feel. That he sees me struggle with it. That he is trying to understand. He needs to ask questions about what he hears me say, to make sure he is understanding. NOT try to fix it. He is a fixer. He wants solutions, not empathy. So he was offering me his solutions, rather than offering empathy.

So, your wife might be a fixer, rather than a listener. If that is the case, Teach her how to stop trying to fix things and just listen and communicate that she is listening.

Yeah, I understand that. I don't see her as someone who tries to fix things instead of listen. Her focus is too much on her for even that.

I’ve told my wife the same things, over and over, expressed the same things again and again. Told her that I need to feel like she understands what I’m expressing and feeling and “hug” me within that space. I honestly don’t know if she’s capable of expressing the empathy I need.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:53 am The advice in this thread has been wonderful to read and has helped me reflect on my relationship.

DT, it’s never easy to be pleasy. At some point you’ll know the right decision for you. That decision will bring both relief and heartache. I’ve watched a brother and a few friends go through a divorce. It’s tough but people are resilient.

Have you penciled out in your mind what a divorce will look like? The challenges? The rewards? The unknown complications?

Please reach out if you need real people to talk to. We have a pretty good group of guys, some who you have already met at lunch on your travels here. We‘ve all experienced portions of this in some form or fashion. From marriage counseling to currently pending divorce.

alas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:42 am

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:56 pm

alas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:24 pm I read through Cnsl1’s post just because it was new, then glanced back to the original post and between the two, it triggered a thought.

I think Cnsl1 is correct that your wife doesn’t know how to help you feel supported emotionally. Then I saw when you talked about being suicidal. Yup, that is an example of her trying to help, but falling on her face because she doesnt know how.

One experience in my own marriage was that I would be feeling something, doesn’t matter what. Instead of hearing me, I felt like he was blaming me or criticizing me. When we had played that game lots of times we backed up and looked at what was happening. He felt like he WAS helping by trying to fix the problem. Well, he was no more capable of fixing things than he was of flying, but he thought what I needed was the problem fixed. Like your wife saw the depression as because you had pulled away from the church and so she told you how she would fix it if she was in that situation. But she was wrong both about what you needed from her, and the root of the problem. She isn’t you, so how she thinks she would fix the problem doesn’t work for you. It might work for her if she is depressed, but it just made you feel worse because she didn’t get it.

So, back to me and my husband. I told him that he cannot fix things and I don’t want him to try. I want him to just shut the f up and listen. Just listen and tell me he is hearing me. That he hears how I feel. That he sees me struggle with it. That he is trying to understand. He needs to ask questions about what he hears me say, to make sure he is understanding. NOT try to fix it. He is a fixer. He wants solutions, not empathy. So he was offering me his solutions, rather than offering empathy.

So, your wife might be a fixer, rather than a listener. If that is the case, Teach her how to stop trying to fix things and just listen and communicate that she is listening.

Yeah, I understand that. I don't see her as someone who tries to fix things instead of listen. Her focus is too much on her for even that.

I’ve told my wife the same things, over and over, expressed the same things again and again. Told her that I need to feel like she understands what I’m expressing and feeling and “hug” me within that space. I honestly don’t know if she’s capable of expressing the empathy I need.

You know as a social worker, I saw a lot of people with broken marriages. I hate to say this, but if you were my client, I would suggest that you consider the possibility that your marriage is broken and your wife incapable of giving you what you need in a relationship.

Some people are not capable of empathy, due to personality disorders that are sadly not their fault, but still they are not capable of change. I don’t know your wife well enough to even guess if that is the case, but I just wanted to toss it out for you to consider.

Now, if you get other things from the marriage, you can find a guy friend to give you understanding, and just accept that your wife cannot give you that, but she can give you other things.

I grew up with a father who had many symptoms of personality disorder. He might have fit narcissistic personality disorder, or psycho pathetic PD, or something in between. He didn’t comprehend obeying the law other than he had learned to stay out of trouble, so he didn’t have that trait of PPD. But many leaders of business, government, and religion are PPD, because they have learned how to stay out of trouble, but they still hurt everyone around them with their inability to care about the well being of others. But you know, my father still had a lot of things I love about him. But to be around him, a person had to know that he was not capable of caring about your well being and know how to protect themselves. Rather than cut myself off from him, I choose to learn to live with his limits.

So, learning to accept your wife’s limits is also an option. But you have to know how to meet your own needs else where.

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:42 am Call me and optimist but I think, based on what I've read about your situation, that your marriage is salvageable and that bliss is possible.

Of course, I'm like one blind man touching an elephant. I only have a small picture and only the small picture you've opened up.

Still, there are a few things suggesting hope, particularly that she wouldn't want to spilt up. Still, she admits being incapable of doing the things. Hmm, then maybe ask her what she CAN give? What are the things she does that you like? Can she do more of those things? Compromise. Can she be happy with you spending time with your brother?

If she REALLY has a personality disorder, I don't think you'd had been married this long. I would bet against any PD marriage lasting 25 years.

I could be wrong, but what if I'm not? If the approach you've been making isn't working, try a different approach. What about trying hard to fill her emotional buckets for a month and see if she's more receptive to giving you a compliment. Does she usually initiate sex?

And the hard question that nobody asked... Do you already have someone else you're interested in?

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:04 am Well, that's a bit more information.

My best to you and your kids as you navigate whatever you do next.

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:20 pm

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:04 am Well, that's a bit more information.

My best to you and your kids as you navigate whatever you do next.

Just wanted to say thank you. For your kind words and caring. You did help solidify things about my marriage, from your questions and pushing me to evaluate my marriage harder.

I am making some plans toward divorce after my daughter's wedding.

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:20 pm I am making some plans toward divorce after my daughter's wedding.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:27 am

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:20 pm

Cnsl1 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:04 am Well, that's a bit more information.

My best to you and your kids as you navigate whatever you do next.

Just wanted to say thank you. For your kind words and caring. You did help solidify things about my marriage, from your questions and pushing me to evaluate my marriage harder.

I am making some plans toward divorce after my daughter's wedding.

Wait a month so that the daughter’s anniversary and the divorce don’t share a calendar page. It will make it easier for the hallmark cards. 🤪

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:44 pm

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:20 pm I am making some plans toward divorce after my daughter's wedding.

I'm sure that was a hard decision to come to, but from what you have posted you have clearly done all that could be reasonably asked of you. I wish you luck as you navigate the rapids ahead and hopefully you come out the other side to smooth sailing. Keep us posted.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:16 pm So sorry you're going through this and that you're having to juggle all of it with a wedding coming up. I wish I had good words of advice, but the others are better than me for sure.

If you ever need to vent, feel free to message anytime.

moksha wrote: ↑Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:32 am Sorry to break in, but this TicTok couple were sharing some stuff that might be helpful:

https://www.tiktok.com/@challenge.faith ... _webapp=v1