NOM

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:06 pm

alas wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:28 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:18 am Here's a question. How do you think Joseph Smith understood the value of the signs and tokens? Was it just about keeping secrets within his little club, or did he imagine it growing much larger and remaining secret enough that people would need secret signs to recognize each other as The Special Anointed Ones? One thing it demonstrates very clearly is that the early days of an egalitarian Christ-oriented church were long gone and now it was all about special privilege for certain members.

Well, he took them from the Masons and the masons did use them to recognize other masons, and I think he wanted to keep the endowment to other polygamists and that was his intent, for polygamists to recognize each other.

That makes sense, but the problem I was having was that at the time everyone who practiced polygamy had to be approved by Joseph, otherwise they were comitting "spiritual wifery." Then I realized that men may not have necessarily known which other men had been given the prophetic okey-dokey, in which case it would allow them to test each other. Another possibility that is that a man could ask a woman for a sign to find out whether she had already been taken so she would not a viable collectors item for his own harem.

Somehow it came out sounding creepier when you explained in more detail.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:18 am Here's a question. How do you think Joseph Smith understood the value of the signs and tokens? Was it just about keeping secrets within his little club, or did he imagine it growing much larger and remaining secret enough that people would need secret signs to recognize each other as The Special Anointed Ones? One thing it demonstrates very clearly is that the early days of an egalitarian Christ-oriented church were long gone and now it was all about special privilege for certain members.

I think I saw the selling of signs and tokens as being the smoke and mirrors which drew our attention away from what was really happening. In Mormonism they were transformed into the instruments that prepared the way for the really important aspect, the part of the endowment that really had teeth, which were the penalties. The value of the signs and tokens no longer served the same purpose as they had in Masonry.
I'm sure plural marriage was probably at least a large part of the impetus for wanting a loyalty test but I think it went even further than that. I think Joseph was tired of being (in his mind) betrayed on ANY level and he wanted people who entered into the covenant of secrecy to know that along with the reality of severe penalties for revealing the tokens or signs, there were implied serious penalties for evil speaking of the Lord's anointed.

In other words, "This is a loyalty covenant and if you step out of line on any level.....we're coming after you and there will be blood."

And I think Brigham followed through with that threat in tamping down criticism when they reached Salt Lake.

Would the tokens ever be used to identify someone who was in the inner circle of polygamy? Maybe.

But when Brigham made the "principle" an open declaration in Utah and among the Saints in the Morcor, of what use were the tokens at that point? Everyone knew the big secret of polygamy by then. I think Joseph would have done the same thing. Once they were beyond the reach of the government they were kings. They could do whatever they wanted with impunity and the penalties would be their God-given legal basis for dealing with treachery.

Palerider wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:33 pm Once they were beyond the reach of the government they were kings.

I think few members realize the reason for travelling all the way to Utah was to get out of the United States so they could set up a sovereign kingdom.

I was surprised when I first learned that the temple endowment once included an oath of vengeance against the United States ("this nation"): "You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."

FairMormon spins it this way, comparing the oath of vengeance to statements in the book of Psalms: "Like the psalmists, the Saints apparently had the wisdom to take directly to God their strong feelings in response to the injustices they had been dealt. By doing so, they turned over to Him the responsibility for both justice and healing."

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:43 am
FairMormon spins it this way, comparing the oath of vengeance to statements in the book of Psalms: "Like the psalmists, the Saints apparently had the wisdom to take directly to God their strong feelings in response to the injustices they had been dealt. By doing so, they turned over to Him the responsibility for both justice and healing."

Right.....

Doesn't quite ring true when we consider Mountain Meadow's though does it....

Can anyone doubt they would have done a lot more of it if they had been able to get away with it?

Palerider wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:54 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:43 am
FairMormon spins it this way, comparing the oath of vengeance to statements in the book of Psalms: "Like the psalmists, the Saints apparently had the wisdom to take directly to God their strong feelings in response to the injustices they had been dealt. By doing so, they turned over to Him the responsibility for both justice and healing."

Right.....

Doesn't quite ring true when we consider Mountain Meadow's though does it....

Can anyone doubt they would have done a lot more of it if they had been able to get away with it?

The thing that makes it ring false to me is requiring the following generations to pray for vengeance. That transforms it from wisdom into just another way to develop Mormonism's persecution complex and us-vs.-them attitude.

Gotta love these polished turds FairMormon presents us.