NOM

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:42 pm What year did the Nephites leave on their Indian and Pacific Ocean voyage?

1829 AD. Oh, you mean when does the book claim they left. It says about 591 BC down in the bottom corner of the page.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:11 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:42 pm What year did the Nephites leave on their Indian and Pacific Ocean voyage?

1829 AD. Oh, you mean when does the book claim they left. It says about 591 BC down in the bottom corner of the page.

So they left before the Mulekites.

... had no idea that sealings, baptisms for the dead, polyandry, masonic endowment ceremonies, multiple tiers of heaven, God and Jesus being separate beings, marriages lasted beyond death, we lived in a spirit world before this life...

What else didn’t they know?

• What actual people talk and act like. In all of fiction is there a more two-dimensional character than Nephi? And Joseph was trying to convince us he was a real person.

• The statistical improbability that in a battle involving hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children between two entire nations the last two living combatants would be the leaders of this respective nations, Shiz and Coriantumr. Oh, yeah, and after Coriantumr cuts off Shiz’s head, Shiz raises up on his arms and struggles for breath. I can’t believe I was stupid enough to think that the destruction of the Jaredite nation ever actually happened.

• Anything about battle or warfare. All the battles in the Book of Mormon read like comic book battles or battles in Marvel movies. The leader of one army is always going mano a mano with the leader of another army, which never happens in real life. The battles in general are all pretty unrealistic, fanciful, and improbable.

• That large groups of people hardly ever all faint at the same time. Or recite phrases in perfect unison spontaneously. Large groups of people were always being overcome by the spirit and fainting in the Book of Mormon - sure crowds can get pretty hysterical, but when in all of recorded history has a large group of people all fainted at the same time? And what’s with all of the times groups of Nephite people speak in unison, as they did in response to King Benjamin’s speech?

• And who the hell was writing down all of the pages and pages of dialogue in the book anyway? Did Alma and Amulek keep a stenographer around to record verbatim their entire exchange with Zeezrom? Who wrote down all of the conversations we see in the Book of Mormon?

If you take the time to stop and think about it, nothing in the entire book seems realistic or true to life. It has to be the most obviously fabricated hoax in all of religious history. And for years I bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:49 am The statistical improbability that in a battle involving hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children between two entire nations...

Well, that's according to the book. According to the apologists they were just small groups that were undetectable amongst the actual millions of ancient Americans, but yet they don't deny that those battles actually happened. You just have clarify what the ancient authors actually meant to say, like "ten thousand" means "bunch" and "million" means "more than I wanted to count." The secret to maintaining your faith in the Book of Mormon is to not believe it, but to believe IN it, and in what spin doctors say about it.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:49 am Did Alma and Amulek keep a stenographer around to record verbatim their entire exchange with Zeezrom? Who wrote down all of the conversations we see in the Book of Mormon?

Presumably the same stenographer that was following Adam and Eve around in the garden.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:15 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:49 am Did Alma and Amulek keep a stenographer around to record verbatim their entire exchange with Zeezrom? Who wrote down all of the conversations we see in the Book of Mormon?

Presumably the same stenographer that was following Adam and Eve around in the garden.

That’s actually why I think the Book of Job in the Old Testament is certainly fiction - there’s like 40 pages of conversation - who wrote it all down? That and I don’t believe God makes bets with the Devil - I’d like to think God would be above letting the Devil torment one of his children over a bet, and the Devil would have to be a complete idiot to make a bet with a God he knows is omniscient.

Night without darkness...seems to be a localized single hemisphere super nova. Maybe this explains why the world is flat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... MNjFSbefzY

"All we know is that it did happen." Whatever!

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:51 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:15 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:49 am Did Alma and Amulek keep a stenographer around to record verbatim their entire exchange with Zeezrom? Who wrote down all of the conversations we see in the Book of Mormon?

Presumably the same stenographer that was following Adam and Eve around in the garden.

That’s actually why I think the Book of Job in the Old Testament is certainly fiction - there’s like 40 pages of conversation - who wrote it all down? That and I don’t believe God makes bets with the Devil - I’d like to think God would be above letting the Devil torment one of his children over a bet, and the Devil would have to be a complete idiot to make a bet with a God he knows is omniscient.

The book of Job is written as a Greek play. Read up on Greek plays, the format is perfect. Then read it again and in your mind you will see them on stage, acting it out. There *may* have been a man once named Job, just like Shakespeare took characters from history and wrote their stories into a play, or it may be purely fiction. What is the difference between fiction and factionalized history. Do you think that Caesar really said, “et tu Brutea” or however it is spelled.

In fact, Bible experts say there seems to be an earlier account that clearly taught the prosperity gospel and the author of the play turned the old story on its head to say that God does not always reward the righteous, but God does what God darn well pleases. God basically tells Job that when he (Job) understands how to set the stars in Heaven and teach the eagle to fly, when Job understands all that went into creating the earth, then Job can come back to God to whine about how unfairly he is being treated.

I think people who talk about “the patience of Job” have never read the story. Job was anything but patient. He whined, and was angry, he felt sorry for himself. His friends blamed him because “prosperity gospel” and he argues with them saying it isn’t his unrighteousness. But he is basically demanding the people around him explain to him why he is suffering so, then he demands that God explain, and God chews him out.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:27 am Night without darkness...seems to be a localized single hemisphere super nova. Maybe this explains why the world is flat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... MNjFSbefzY

"All we know is that it did happen." Whatever!

"...still mystify even the best scientific minds as to how they happened."

I hear that Einstein lost a lot of sleep over the Nephite long day dilemma.

In our defense, we have to remember that many of us were born into this and socialized to reading the BoM from as early as 1 years old. The cartoon version of the BoM socialized is to the simplistic characters. Nephi was good, His brothers bad. By age 12 we know the characters and stories but don’t have the intelligence to see the crazy stuff. By the time we are adults, we’ve read it from cover to cover multiple times and as quickly as possible. We were never taught to think critically about it. It was the key to our religion, happiness, and salvation.

We are truly awakened when we realize how silly the whole book is. It’s simply the mumblings of a religious mad man with his head in a hat.

Did it bother anyone else when God held back the power of his prophet Alma from saving all those innocent women and children that were burned to death in a fire? Why? So God could exact a more severe judgement on the wicked folks who threw them in there? WTF was Smith thinking with this story? Its worse than the OT God who made the bet with Satan to Fup Job's life.

It might be another interesting thread to show all the one upsmanship that went into the BOM stories that show how much JS wanted to top any story in any other set of scripture. It's like a marvel disaster B movie times 100.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:25 am Did it bother anyone else when God held back the power of his prophet Alma from saving all those innocent women and children that were burned to death in a fire? Why? So God could exact a more severe judgement on the wicked folks who threw them in there? WTF was Smith thinking with this story? Its worse than the OT God who made the bet with Satan to Fup Job's life.

This is the big reveal of LDS theodicy, the problem of evil. It's an absolutely awful answer.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:41 am All those armies fighting and killing each other for days. The numbers of soldiers in the conflicts are huge. Logistically you could never feed that many men on the move. Not to mention the sanitation issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Details, details. Next you'll say that the Exodus didn't happen for some of the same logistical reasons ..... wait a minute .....

Suffice to say J.s. wrote this book of Bullshit , he was the ultimate conman of his day !!!!!

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:35 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:11 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:42 pm What year did the Nephites leave on their Indian and Pacific Ocean voyage?

1829 AD. Oh, you mean when does the book claim they left. It says about 591 BC down in the bottom corner of the page.

So they left before the Mulekites.

Cheese 'n Crackers, read the book! Of course, the Nephites set sail before the Mulekites.

I'm bring this thread back to life, at least momentarily. 1st, Moksha typically makes a funny but insightful comment above. 2nd, I woke up thinking about this yesterday morning, and actually sent a question about it to FAIR. I received a prompt, friendly reply this morning, referring me to Book of Mormon Central, which 5 page explanation tended to muddy the waters by exploring several possibilities while ignoring the possibility that "Joseph made it all up." https://knowwhybookofmormoncentral.org/ ... -jerusalem I felt like (for the upteenth time) I was trying to understand possible TBM responses but, TBM's studiously avoid critical responses. Sigh!

P.S. The question I submitted to FAIR was a significantly abridged version of this:
I have a 1st Nephi Question. 1/9/2020
Why does 1st Nephi superficially agree with the Bible, (Nephi says Zedekiah became king approximately 600 B.C. which is 2-3 years off) but contradict a careful reading of the Bible and the Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle? I refer especially 2nd Kings 23, 24, and 25, 2nd Chronicles 36, and the book of Jeremiah?
Zedekiah likely was appointed king by Nebuchadnezzar on or soon after March 16, 597 B.C. (See: Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle-Wikipedia, and Bible Dictionary)see also: (Horn, Siegfried; "The Babylonian Chronicle. . . .",p. 1-10)
2nd Kings 23: 36-24:5 In the days of Jehoiakim, age 25 (reigned 11 years) Nebuchadnezzar came up from Babylon and Jehoiakim became his servant.
2nd Kings 24: 7-16 In the days of Jehoiachin, age 18 according to 2nd Kings 24, or 8 according to 2nd Chronicles 36 (in both he reigned 3 months) Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem. Jehoiachin carried out the treasures of the temple to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar carried away Jehoiachin, his mother and his wives, all the princes, men of valor, craftsmen, and smiths (including Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-Nego, and Ezekiah, in total around 10,000 captives. Only the poor remained in the land.
2nd Kings 24:17, Bible Dictionary- Chronology, 598 B.C. Nebuchadnezzar changed Mattaniah’s name to Zedekiah and made him king (11 years) in March of 597 B.C. Was this 597 B.C. or 600 B.C? Either way, this is the year Nephi tells us many prophets came into the land predicting the destruction of Jerusalem? (1st Nephi 1:4)Were they stating the obvious, or late, or what? Why did they have nothing to say about Joiachin's capitulation, or the 10,000 exiles?
2nd Kings 24:18-25:1-30 In the 9th year of Zedekiah, Nebuchadnezzer returned and beseiged Jerusalem for the final time. In the 11th year Jerusalem fell.
Jeremiah was a middle-aged to old prophet and had been preaching since the days of Josiah @ 627 B.C. His estimated age in 1st Nephi would be 50 to 60 years, and he had been preaching for 27-30 of those years
Jeremiah 1:1-3 Jeremiah began preaching in the 13th year of Josiah’s reign. (628 B.C.) see Bible Dictionary- Chronology.
Jerusalem was pillaged before Zedekiah was made king, and the riches of the temple, and the rich and smart people (Daniel, Ezekiel) taken to Babylon. How did Lehi and his riches (1st Nephi 2:4)escape this pillaging? How did the rich Laban and the other Elders of the Jews (2nd Nephi 4:9, 22) escape this pillaging and exile?
Possible Apologtic answers: Dating events that long ago is imprecise. The Bible dictionary and the Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle could be a couple of years off.
Possible Critical response. Dating some events, like the year of Jeremiah's or even Jesus's birth are understandably imprecise. But dating a major social event, like the pillaging of Jerusalem, and taking 10,000 exiles to Babylon, verified with multiple historical records, is likely to be accurate.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:41 am Jerusalem was pillaged before Zedekiah was made king, and the riches of the temple, and the rich and smart people (Daniel, Ezekiel) taken to Babylon. How did Lehi and his riches (1st Nephi 2:4)escape this pillaging? How did the rich Laban and the other Elders of the Jews (2nd Nephi 4:9, 22) escape this pillaging and exile?
Possible Apologtic answers: Dating events that long ago is imprecise. The Bible dictionary and the Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle could be a couple of years off.

This cracks me up because of the Book of Mormon text itself in 1 Nephi 2:12-13:

Nephi, son of Lehi, alleged Jerusalem native, wrote: 12 And thus Laman and Lemuel, being the eldest, did murmur against their father. And they did murmur because they knew not the dealings of that God who had created them.

13 Neither did they believe that Jerusalem, that great city, could be destroyed according to the words of the prophets. And they were like unto the Jews who were at Jerusalem, who sought to take away the life of my father.

Emphasis added to point out how astonishingly short their memories were. Let's allow the explanation of dates from FairMormon. It remains uncontested that Nebuchadnezzar already stomped the Jews before putting Zedekiah on the throne as a client king after his father, King Josiah was defeated and killed. Were Laman and Lemuel possibly that misinformed over the military capabilities of Jerusalem in comparison with Babylon? Or, was the author of the Book of Mormon apparently ignorant of these details surrounding Old Testament history?

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:43 am Emphasis added to point out how astonishingly short their memories were. Let's allow the explanation of dates from FairMormon. It remains uncontested that Nebuchadnezzar already stomped the Jews before putting Zedekiah on the throne as a client king after his father, King Josiah was defeated and killed. Were Laman and Lemuel possibly that misinformed over the military capabilities of Jerusalem in comparison with Babylon? Or, was the author of the Book of Mormon apparently ignorant of these details surrounding Old Testament history?

I've spent a little time the last few months listening to podcasts about looking at the Bible critically from people like David Bokovoy, Bart Ehrman, John Hamer, etc and then seeing how that presents so many problems for Joseph Smith.

For all of the apologetics that insist that Joseph Smith weaved these things through in such a complex way, he sure made a lot of mistakes when it came to his understanding of the Bible. Deutero-Isaiah is the biggest here, but then you have other things like needing a literal global flood, tower of babel, etc.

And then you get to these things... how could Joseph get so many details wrong in what is the most correct book on Earth. So weird.

Thanks for the emphasis on 1st Nephi 2:12-13.

Correction: In my opening post I said that Zedekiah was killed in 587 B.C. Historical records say it was his sons who were killed. (except for Mulek, of course) Zedekiah was blinded in 587 B.C. but survived until 561 B.C. Deacon regrets this error.

They did know that there were a LOT of gullible people.

They didn't know that the scam would last at least 200 years.