NOM

Pretty sure President Nelson came out against evolution when he was still an apostle. Guess he was the ideal person to walk back the possibility of evolution given his medical background. He phrased his reservation against evolution without saying "thus saith the Lord" allowing the BYU biology department some dignity when they later attended professional conferences.

I am thankful that not one single LDS Authority has insisted the earth is flat. Professor Louis Midgley of BYU has given no indication that Elder Packer gave a red light to a FARMS hit piece on Carl Sagan.

moksha wrote:Pretty sure President Nelson came out against evolution when he was still an apostle. Guess he was the ideal person to walk back the possibility of evolution given his medical background. He phrased his reservation against evolution without saying "thus saith the Lord" allowing the BYU biology department some dignity when they later attended professional conferences.

I am thankful that not one single LDS Authority has insisted the earth is flat. Professor Louis Midgley of BYU has given no indication that Elder Packer gave a red light to a FARMS hit piece on Carl Sagan.

Joseph Fielding and others were very literal in their timeline and interpretation of how old the Earth is. The Church seems to have walked back on that and is comfortable letting people come up with their own opinion on this and other hard science issues (evolution, DNA and BOM).

The Church seems almost liberal compared to what I hear coming out of Evangelicalical/ Conservative Christianity.

I remember a guy I was teaching years who's biggest knock on the Church was how it was, "always changing." He also believed the Earth was 6,000 years old...


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Raylan Givens wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:43 pm Joseph Fielding and others were very literal in their timeline and interpretation of how old the Earth is. The Church seems to have walked back on that and is comfortable letting people come up with their own opinion on this and other hard science issues (evolution, DNA and BOM).

I saw this point made in the response to the CES Letter from a former CES instructor. He basically said you don't have to believe in a global flood or disbelieve in evolution, etc to maintain belief in the church.

That's true in the sense that the church can no longer go out and make these claims because they simply do not hold up to what we know.

But then you're left with trying to explain how life began in Missouri yet got to Israel without a global flood. Or how the DNA of Native Americans is not from Israel, indicating that God was too stupid to know it or that Joseph Smith made it all up.

It's great to let members believe what they want about science because the church is in no position to make claims about it, but it opens up so many problems when the literal claims of the early church is no longer required.

Does Joesph Fielding Smith’s quote that man would never go to the moon count?

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it. The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.”

Ho Lee Turtle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:57 pm Does Joesph Fielding Smith’s quote that man would never go to the moon count?

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it. The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.”

If we get to vote, I vote: YES.

Welp, if your coffee is too hot, it tastes like burnt chili beans, so that's pretty important.

Ho Lee Turtle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:57 pm Does Joesph Fielding Smith’s quote that man would never go to the moon count?

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it. The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.”

The ironic side to this Joseph Fielding Smith quote was that it was said one month after Soviet Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin went into space. I would assume Elder Smith had not kept up with the news since it was in the headlines of the Deseret News and on KSL-TV. Maybe this was the Mormon version of climate denial at that time.


The first man in space and Smith missed it.

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:34 pm Maybe this was the Mormon version of climate denial at that time.

Speaking of climate change, what is the Mormon/LDS/Saints Church position on this? Any visions or revelations?

I think DNA is an ever improving science. I think it will help put the church out of business.

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:34 pm The first man in space and Smith missed it.

I wouldn't be surprised if he thought it was a hoax and the proof would be that WE (one nation under GOD) would never be able to put a man into space.

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:34 pm Maybe this was the Mormon version of climate denial at that time.

Speaking of climate change, what is the Mormon/LDS/Saints Church position on this? Any visions or revelations?

I think this is a topic of convenience for TSCC. They use natural disasters to drive fear into members about the last days narrative. But they turn around and play that narrative down when it suits them as well. Talking out both sides of their mouth with gas-lighting in full splendor.

From my view the conservative republican Mormons mostly support pro-capitalistic legislation that will support the bottom line of businesses that make the most money for them, because it's God's blessing for paying tithing; the global warming thing is just a consequence of the last days and Jesus will sort that out. There is this D&C scripture that tells TBMs they can keep having a plethora of babies because there's plenty of resources available:

D&C 104: 17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:39 am Blessings of healing are not necessarily out, but no one expects them to work all by themselves without science-based medical care. Plus modern expectations for them are already so low that we now have Elder Bednar asking the critical question, "do you have the faith not to be healed?" I think they all quietly know that statistics are simply not on their side even if the blame is carefully placed on sin and lack of faith.

Here's the biggest study conducted so far on the power of prayer and it's lack of making a difference in major medical outcomes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

As far as the whole last days narrative, judge for yourself if you believe the world is getting worse and the last days are upon us:

https://ourworldindata.org/

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:40 am

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:39 am Blessings of healing are not necessarily out, but no one expects them to work all by themselves without science-based medical care. Plus modern expectations for them are already so low that we now have Elder Bednar asking the critical question, "do you have the faith not to be healed?" I think they all quietly know that statistics are simply not on their side even if the blame is carefully placed on sin and lack of faith.

Here's the biggest study conducted so far on the power of prayer and it's lack of making a difference in major medical outcomes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

Ah, but see, measurement in this case can affect the outcome, because measurement can change the mind of the agent (God) petitioned for a good outcome.

The only way around this problem that I can see is to try to force God's hand. An unethical way would be to use threats. ("Affect the outcomes positively, or we'll nuke this box of kittens.") An ethical way, though intractable, would be to log intercessory prayers for every operation everywhere, or at least focus on areas with a lot of believers. Basically, run this study everywhere God would do his work. Make him choose between staying under the radar and helping people.

We're kind of already doing that at Utah hospitals, where outcomes are recorded and a high percentage of patients pray for good outcomes. Either God isn't doing anything in them, or he stays statistically insignificant (so that he can't use good outcomes to influence beliefs on average), or he curses unbelievers in order to bless believers (which sounds pretty cranky), or he allocates blessings in a way that maximizes some God-only-knows objective.

Must be tough being God, always having to hide when your kids figure out new ways to observe you.

FWIW, I see the recent non-healing narratives as a manifestation of Mormonism culturally beginning to come to grips with the hidden god problem. I very much dislike the resolutions "believe it all anyway" and "the miracle is your continued belief," though.

Reuben wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:59 am

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:40 am Here's the biggest study conducted so far on the power of prayer and it's lack of making a difference in major medical outcomes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

Ah, but see, measurement in this case can affect the outcome, because measurement can change the mind of the agent (God) petitioned for a good outcome.

The only way around this problem that I can see is to try to force God's hand. An unethical way would be to use threats. ("Affect the outcomes positively, or we'll nuke this box of kittens.") An ethical way, though intractable, would be to log intercessory prayers for every operation everywhere, or at least focus on areas with a lot of believers. Basically, run this study everywhere God would do his work. Make him choose between staying under the radar and helping people.

We're kind of already doing that at Utah hospitals, where outcomes are recorded and a high percentage of patients pray for good outcomes. Either God isn't doing anything in them, or he stays statistically insignificant (so that he can't use good outcomes to influence beliefs on average), or he curses unbelievers in order to bless believers (which sounds pretty cranky), or he allocates blessings in a way that maximizes some God-only-knows objective.

Must be tough being God, always having to hide when your kids figure out new ways to observe you.

Well Reuben: "God's ways are not our ways. You just gotta have faith!"

Did I win at Thought-Terminating-Cliche'-Bingo with that statement?

If I recall Joseph Fielding Smith and others taught that most aspects of the Garden of Eden story were realistic. The telling of the creation of Adam being singularly symbolic as it states in the temple.

But this new article seems to step well beyond that to make room for just about anyone, whether evolutionist or creationist to feel cozy in the church. I think science has had a direct impact here. This article leaves the door wide open to all sorts of speculations.

Of course JFS is feeling the impact of the bus tires right now. But....who cares!?!? He's DEAD!

http://www.ldsliving.com/4-Elements-of- ... dium=email

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 pmSpeaking of climate change, what is the Mormon/LDS/Saints Church position on this? Any visions or revelations?

The Moral Imperative of Environmental Stewardship

I haven't read the entire article closely, and I likely won't because I can't stand the flowery BS any more, but there is a quote in the article that is a bit shocking:

Climate change is real, and it’s our responsibility as stewards to do what we can to limit the damage done to God’s creation.

A bit of a change from: Jesus is going to be back the day after tomorrow, so we can do whatever we want to the earth 'cause he's gonna fix it all!

wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:22 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 pmSpeaking of climate change, what is the Mormon/LDS/Saints Church position on this? Any visions or revelations?

The Moral Imperative of Environmental Stewardship

I haven't read the entire article closely, and I likely won't because I can't stand the flowery BS any more, but there is a quote in the article that is a bit shocking:

Climate change is real, and it’s our responsibility as stewards to do what we can to limit the damage done to God’s creation.

A bit of a change from: Jesus is going to be back the day after tomorrow, so we can do whatever we want to the earth 'cause he's gonna fix it all!

The “God is going to come back and fix it all” idea has always struck me as childish and selfish. What are we, 2 year old babies that mess up our bedroom and depend on mama to come clean up. I don’t think so. I think we are more like teenagers and God is going to come back and just like Mom & Dad coming back from a weekend trip to find the teenaged kids threw a wild party and destroyed the house, God is going to be very very angry at what we have done to his earth that he spent billions of years making perfect for us and we destroy it in a couple of hundred years. Yup, God is going to be pissed, and yell at us to clean up the mess we made.

Ho Lee Turtle wrote: ↑Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:57 pm Does Joesph Fielding Smith’s quote that man would never go to the moon count?

“We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it. The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen.”

I remember reading this a year or two after I was baptized. It was one of the first chinks in the armour of my testimony and something I often went back to in my times of doubt. Of course, over the years I had many other things to go back to as well, but I think this was the first big one.

Hagoth
That's because they mostly sidestep science altogether. Let us not forget Nelson's dismissal of both the big bang and evolution as "could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary?” Third grade creationist science denial at it's finest.

Well, I mean, he cut his education short and went into being a heart surgeon. I wonder what other "revealed" truths he will unveil at Conference this weekend...... perhaps the City of Enoch is on its way back so watch for the bright star in the skies....or perhaps Quakers on the moon have now advanced their own technology so they will visit the lost tribes on Mars this year! That would be gentlemanly of them. They can beat us earthlings to Mars because they have a higher priesthood, and......and........they have the 3rd anointed as spoken of on the 116 lost pages of the Book of Mormon. Through their righteousness, Moroni traveled there and gave the new edition, revised and improved over Smith's translation to them for their faithfulness.