NOM

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:40 am**

Yesterday was awful again... this morning slightly better.

I at least found out the reason it got brought up out of nowhere (or at least what I assume it to be). I had made a comment on a Facebook thread during that Face to Face thing... it wasn't a horrible comment but just a very generic "I hope Saints is more truthful than the Gospel Topics essays." My sister-in-law saw it *days* later and told my wife on me, which is *fantastic.* The ironic thing is that it was the first and last comment I've left on Facebook about Mormonism ever... how she saw it I have no idea.

So a lesson to be learned that you never, ever post anything online with your real name if you have family members who will apparently spy and tattle on you. Since it was right in the middle of like a 500 comment thread I didn't think anyone I knew could ever see it, but how wrong I was. Painful lesson learned.

But I think we're taking Alas' advice that for now we just can't talk about it. Maybe someday she will be more open to it, but until then there's just no way to do it w/o emotions taking over.

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:55 am**

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:40 am it wasn't a horrible comment but just a very generic "I hope Saints is more truthful than the Gospel Topics essays."

Seems like a lot of hullabaloo over an honest comment. It seems to me that maybe the topic of discussion should have been about how your sister-in-law should keep her nose the hell out of your marriage. New buzzword: Spying for the Lord.

Since your comment was about Saints and the Gospel Topic essays, it's too bad that your wife didn't pick one of those topics to ambush you with.

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:02 am**

I told you to take a painting class together.

Focus on building your relationship. Not letting the church poison it.

14 years of experience trying to guide her to the truth and a year of marriage counseling to fix it are notched on my belt!

You know what happened? We found we like each other and now I let the church and her friend's faith crisis do all the dirty work!

She's 52% NOM and 48% TBM most days.

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:17 am**

Brent wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:36 am The Church tends to "lie by omission" but does "lie by commission" as well. Pointing to the omission lies is often less confrontational.

Fibs of commision, eh? Sounds like a veiled reference to FAIRMormon.

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:20 am**

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:02 am
Focus on building your relationship. Not letting the church poison it...

She's 52% NOM and 48% TBM most days.

That's about where we are now, but more like 65/35. Although it frightened her at first, Mrs. Hagoth has come to admire me for being myself and not retreating. She is quick to jump to my defense if someone at church makes a sideways comment about me or our kids. I love that. She recognizes that I did about 100 times more work and study to keep my faith and get to the truth than most believing members do. She understands that I'm not trying to hurt anyone, just trying not to let anyone hurt me or my family. Plus, both our kids are entirely out and one is very verbal about harm done to him by the church. I'm convinced that half the battle is maintaining a positive place on the sincere/snarky meter when communicating with loved ones. When religious topics come up now it is never confrontational.

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:21 am**

Here's a thought from left field....

Thank her for bringing up her viewpoint and providing new information. Then ask her to continue to study other/new topics on church history together. Let her know that her insights and thoughts are important to you and would be very helpful in sorting out all the other questions you have.

We know there are a lot of other things the make it really hard to really trust founding leaders, the current leaders, or the church itself. This might open the door to her exploring those things too.

Don't let this be a fight, build on it.

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:31 am**

græy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:21 am Here's a thought from left field....

Thank her for bringing up her viewpoint and providing new information. Then ask her to continue to study other/new topics on church history together. Let her know that her insights and thoughts are important to you and would be very helpful in sorting out all the other questions you have.

Don't let this be a fight, build on it.

I think at least for now this just isn't possible - she knows how I feel and even on something like priesthood which is minor compared to translation/DNA/polygamy/etc... every time I defended my viewpoint she took it as an attack on her.

For now we have to just not talk about church stuff at all. I told her if she's ever at a point where she wants to go over it with me we can, but as much as I want to try and build from this, I think trying to pry any further would not work, but obviously hoping that down the road she is more open to it.

It doesn't help that her family is now regularly jumping in with their testimonies, letters, and now spying. How can I compete with that?

Posted: **Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:35 am**

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:31 am
græy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:21 am Here's a thought from left field....

Thank her for bringing up her viewpoint and providing new information. Then ask her to continue to study other/new topics on church history together. Let her know that her insights and thoughts are important to you and would be very helpful in sorting out all the other questions you have.

Don't let this be a fight, build on it.
I think at least for now this just isn't possible - she knows how I feel and even on something like priesthood which is minor compared to translation/DNA/polygamy/etc... every time I defended my viewpoint she took it as an attack on her.

For now we have to just not talk about church stuff at all. I told her if she's ever at a point where she wants to go over it with me we can, but as much as I want to try and build from this, I think trying to pry any further would not work, but obviously hoping that down the road she is more open to it.

It doesn't help that her family is now regularly jumping in with their testimonies, letters, and now spying. How can I compete with that?

Don't compete with it. Letting her put it all back on the shelf is okay, it's not going to go away. The fact that family and friends are spying and writing letters might actually work to your advantage. One of the things that really pushed Kalikala away from the church was the attitudes and messages of the believers in her life. The "I'm so sorry" and looks of pity did not help her in the way people thought (assumed?) they would.

Posted: **Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:24 pm**

alas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:33 am I am sorry to be right. Sometimes I would love to have my pessimism blown out of the water.

But anyway. Time to pick up the pieces. The best way to do that is to acknowledge her position has some merit. You hold your ground on your position, but acknowledge hers. Kind of like digging trenches in WWI, and agreeing that there is a no man’s land between you. But at least you are not constantly shooting at each other.

See, she just attacked by luring you out of your defensive position and ambushing you. So, you have to establish a no man’s land. My husband was smart. He was the one with us to enforce no man’s land. He would just say, “I’m not going to argue about this.” And walk away. See, he learned something from all the marriage counseling I did.

But to establish a no man’s land, you both have to stop drawing the other out of their defensive position into an ambush. You have to grant each other your battle lines and agree not to cross. This sounds and feels like a stalemate, but it is more of a truce. Because you recognize her position. This is key. Recognize her position.

So, what is it your wife loves about the church? If you don’t know, then it is high time to ask.

So, you can start out by acknowledging that where you are with church hurts her and that you Do. Not. Want. To. Hurt. Her.

You want to understand her. And you would like for her to at least accept you, even if she can’t understand.

So, first step have a good talk about what she loves about the church. Do you know “reflective listening”? That is when you repeat your understanding of what she said back to her to make sure you understand.

Second step is to assure her that you want to let her keep all that.

Third step is to explain that you would like her to accept where you are, not change her, but just get her to accept where you are. Explain that what you REALLY want is for her to understand, but acknowledge that may be impossible and so you are trying to settle for accept. Apologize for pushing her to try to get her to understand because you see it hurts her.

Fourth step is to Explain that trying to change the other person isn’t working. Her trying to fix your testimony is not going to work and you trying to get her out of the church isn’t going to work. (Hint, the way others have gotten their spouse out is by letting them alone to figure it out for *themselves*) tell her that you have to accept that as much as you need her to accept that. You need her to accept that you are not coming back to church.

If you can get through all steps in one conversation great, if it starts heating up, kiss her and ask to save it for later.

Mostly she needs to know you love her more than you hate the church.

And I can’t tell you how many time my DH and I have been through variations of this conversation. Mostly because over the years, I have lost count.

This is an awesome thread in general (having been there, done that), but Alas, just wanted to say this is amazing and thank you for sharing this sage wisdom and advice. I still don't really know whether my own marriage will make it (and we have been at this for years now), but this is definitely something I will try as we keep trying. Thank you, thank you!

NOM

TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?

Re: TBM wife read my priesthood page and sent notes... anyone have any insight?