NOM

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:09 pm

jfro18 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:19 pm This reminds me of the Mormon Expressions podcast on building a transoceanic vessel. What the Book of Mormon says about how this was accomplished is so incredibly impossible and just ignorant that is impossible to take the book seriously as some sort of historical document.

If you've never heard that podcast, it's amazing. You can listen to it at http://johnlarsen.org/podcast/Archive/M ... ion276.mp3

I guess I was less impressed by this episode that most people. The whole concept was based on what it takes to build a large European style keel ship. Many of the points were dead-on, especially concerning logistics, but I wish they had at least tipped a hat to other types of boat building, like the sewn plank hulls were actually built anciently in Oman and didn't require nails, and Polynesian ocean-crossing canoes that are lashed together with far less tooling and have woven plant fiber sails. The BoM makes a point of saying that Nephi was instructed in specific construction techniques that were unlike conventional boat building. Even as a TBM I assumed that his ship would have looked more like this:


These vessels are perfectly capable of crossing oceans and require much less material and technology than the style of construction described in the podcast. All I'm saying is that by digging so deeply into a specific narrow set of expectations this kind of arguement gives apologists an easy dance-around.

But still...

As i recall the story goes that Nephi had to build a bellows of the skin of beasts. This would infer he was smelting iron or some metal. Which in turn infers his boat incorporated signicant metal into its construction. Which infers this was more than a canoe. Obviously Joseph was thinking of ocean going vessels he was familiar with.

I have pointed out the ridiculous maths in the generations and year counts that span 3rd and 4th Knee-fi in anther thread (somewhere?). Dudes having babies past their century mark and stuff. Funny thing though, DW discovered this and called attention to it last time we read the BoM. She was like "Hey that math doesn't work out, what gives?"

The last time I attempted to read the BOM with my wife I ran into this problem. It was probably about 3 years ago. I had let her know I had doubts about the church but I had not yet let her know how far those doubts went.

We got into 2 Nephi where they were building the temple and I just said I couldn't see how they could have enough people to do the things they were talking about. 2 Nephi 5 was supposedly around the year 588–559 B.C. We are talking about 40 years after leaving Jerusalem. Even if you assume they bred like rabbits, most of the Nephites would have been children. Who are all of these people building buildings and working with different metals and alloys?

Then there are contradictions like this - 2 Nephi 5:

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

What on earth are all of the precious things that were used in the construction of Solomon's temple if they were not gold, silver, brass, etc? And where did the master craftsmen come from that produced the "exceedingly fine workmanship"? Didn't pretty much everyone there grow up in the wilderness?

I think 2 Nephi 5 may just be one of the most ridiculous chapters in the BOM.

oliblish wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:15 pm
Then there are contradictions like this - 2 Nephi 5:

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

I think 2 Nephi 5 may just be one of the most ridiculous chapters in the BOM.

So the dude leaves Jerusalem as a teenager, spends his early adult years travelling missing out on formal aprentiships and/or education, teaches himself to build a boat and know how to navigate to another hemisphere, then get to the new world, and teaches himself to become a master blacksmith working in all metals and alloys, an architect, a foreman, a city planner, swordsman, general, and teacher?

Wow, the dude's got skills. I have to hand it to him. He'll totally cut off my head if he gets a bad feeling about me, but he's got skills. Most dudes are doing pretty well to master one or two on that list, but not Nephi. Respect.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:30 amAs i recall the story goes that Nephi had to build a bellows of the skin of beasts. This would infer he was smelting iron or some metal.

Good point, but I the BoM specifically states that the iron was for the making of tools:

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

I agree with you that Joseph was probably thinking of the kinds of ships he knew about. I also think the Jaredite barges were inspired by Erie Canal packet boats. I was just giving my former apologetic response.

But we might as well be discussing whether or not Elvin metal is aluminum.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:53 am There is still the nonsense of the timeline for oceanic crossing being longer than a year.

After reading Margret Mead's Coming of Age in Samoa, it would make sense for any red-blooded Lehite boys (or Palmyra boys) to want an extended shore leave at that port of call.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:30 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:53 am There is still the nonsense of the timeline for oceanic crossing being longer than a year.

After reading Margret Mead's Coming of Age in Samoa, it would make sense for any red-blooded Lehite boys (or Palmyra boys) to want an extended shore leave at that port of call.

Which would make sense if Samoa hadn't been populated centuries later by Hagoth.

Check. Mate.

nehor90210 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:59 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:30 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:53 am There is still the nonsense of the timeline for oceanic crossing being longer than a year.

After reading Margret Mead's Coming of Age in Samoa, it would make sense for any red-blooded Lehite boys (or Palmyra boys) to want an extended shore leave at that port of call.

Which would make sense if Samoa hadn't been populated centuries later by Hagoth.

Check. Mate.

Just wondering what type of reception this Hagoth character would have recieved from the native people already occupying Samoa???

"Archeologists place the earliest human settlement of the Samoan archipelago at around 2850 years before present. This date is based upon the ancient lapita pottery shards found throughout the islands; The oldest evidence being in Mulifanua.[1] This area of Polynesia, Samoa and Tonga, contains evidence from dates of similar times, suggesting the area was settled during the same period."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Samoa

This would indicate the islands were settled approx. 1400 BC. A little early for this Hagoth Nephite boy.....

Maybe he didn’t actually make it to the Samoan islands at all. Maybe he just sailed down the coastline???

Actually.....what proof do we have that he existed at all???

Maybe the Samoans had a little Hebrew or Egyptian in their dialect?

WHOOPS! Nope....

"Linguistically, the Samoan language belongs to the Polynesian sub-branch of the Austronesian language family, whose origin is thought to be in Taiwan."

Well....I'm sure all of this will be explained in the next life.