Questions to get TBMs thinking

[jb_10mm]

If Pres Nelson, The Prophet, came to you and personally asked for your 15-year-old daughter to be his plural wife, would you give her to him, or would you call the police?

I actually did get that opportunity once with an apologist friend and his wife. They have two daughters that are just about "a few months before their fifteenth birthday". I asked what they would do if the prophet asked them to marry them off to an apostle. The apologist and his wife looked at me like they had been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. The wife slowly said that Yes, she would allow this marriage, but she would need a divine manifestation.

I think this is why the angel with a drawn sword story works for many people instead of sounding like absolute baloney. While it's suspicious that only Joseph saw this angel, this kind of manifestation is what the average Mormon mother would want before such an arrangement could take place.

But wasn't Joseph the only one that saw the angel with a drawn sword? I think everyone else just took his word on his divine manifestation.

[Corsair]

But wasn't Joseph the only one that saw the angel with a drawn sword? I think everyone else just took his word on his divine manifestation.

Yes, this is a crucial point. The Angel with a Drawn Sword incident is included in the Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo essay as if we should simply accept Joseph's claims without any cross-examination. Is this the standard for divine visitation? Does an angel's appearance show that this doctrine is supremely important? Here are the other significant manifestations of this dispensation:

• First Vision - God speaks to prophets once again
• Moroni appears to Joseph Smith - revealing the Book of Mormon
• John the Baptist - Aaronic priesthood restored
• Peter, James, and John - Melchizedek priesthood restored
• Elijah appears in the Kirtland temple - restoring the sealing power
• Angel with a drawn sword - plural marriage is definitely an important doctrine

We have regular lessons on every single event listed above along with the most important doctrines of the Restoration. Every seminary student and Gospel Doctrine attendee can talk about each event in great detail. Most Primary children can talk about these to some degree. But not about that last one. No, plural marriage remain mired in embarrassment, awkward stories, and terrible apologetics.

The ultimate human reason for plural marriage was that Joseph Smith and the early Mormons fully believed that plural marriage was a profoundly important doctrine. This says nothing about God's doctrinal reasons for plural marriage. LDS leaders in the first century of Mormonism could talk about the doctrinal reasons behind it. But not any longer and not with any current authority.

[EternityIsNow]

If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?

I did

Exactly.

If the praying for testimony method was objectively real, nobody could get the negative response. But people do, which suggests an elevated emotional or psycho-neurogenic phenomenon. Probably involving the vagus nerve.

If you could get a TBM to pray consistently for a testimony that the church is NOT true, while they are reading rational literature that counters Mormon claims, sooner or later many would get a "confirmation" that the church is not true. Due to the psychogenic nature of the elevated emotions involved in this type of "confirmation." And some people don't have to try so hard to get that confirmation in reverse. I suspect in cases like yours, some subconscious doubts were previously in place, and the prayer allowed those doubts to align with your emotions, creating the un-confirmation experience.

[glass shelf]

If Pres Nelson, The Prophet, came to you and personally asked for your 15-year-old daughter to be his plural wife, would you give her to him, or would you call the police?

I think Mormons are fantastic at seeing "traps" and giving BS answers. One time, someone I didn't know showed up at my house to be my visiting teacher during the 6-month gap between when I left and asked for no contact and when I resigned. I was irritated, pointed out that i'd asked for no contact, and said that I didn't appreciate being bothered at my house about a religion that I wasn't interested in. Then I said, "Would you like it if I randomly dropped by to tell you all of the things wrong with Mormonism while your kids were standing there?" Naively, I thought this might cause some self-reflection.

Instead, she said, "I love meeting new people, and anyone's welcome to come by my house any time." Yeah, right.

[foolmeonce]

I had DW really read D&C 132 for the first time, to the end. She thought she had read it before and knew it, but she either hadn't, or maybe she had and just blocked out the scary parts. Really reading it for the first time was very hard on her.

Then, that same night, I had her read the polygamy essay.

Then I asked her, "Explain to me the difference between Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith."

That broke her shelf. I felt terrible, but kept reminding myself that I didn't create this problem, JS did.

Now she and my kids are out, our marriage survived, and we've never been happier.

[Hagoth]

If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?

I did

Me too. In fact, pretty much every time a prayer seemed to be answered (specifically about the BoM, Joseph, etc.), the answer was that the church is not true. At first I concluded that I was at fault for not getting the right answer, then that God was telling me that the church isn't true, and finally that my conscious mind was reluctantly accepting what I had already worked out subconsciously.

[RubinHighlander]

If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?

I did

Me three!

[Hagoth]

Here's a question to ask while looking at (or coloring) the pictures in your Pearl of Great Price: "Hey, why does God have a boner?"

[slavereeno]

Here's a question to ask while looking at (or coloring) the pictures in your Pearl of Great Price: "Hey, why does God have a boner?"

I will refer you to the celestial procreation thread...

[RubinHighlander]

Here's a question to ask while looking at (or coloring) the pictures in your Pearl of Great Price: "Hey, why does God have a boner?"

OMG Hagoth! Thank you for the Friday laughs! If God's boner lasts more than 3 millennia, does he need to call his Dr.?

[Hagoth]

Here's a question to ask while looking at (or coloring) the pictures in your Pearl of Great Price: "Hey, why does God have a boner?"

OMG Hagoth! Thank you for the Friday laughs! If God's boner lasts more than 3 millennia, does he need to call his Dr.?

I'm assuming that would be Dr. Who.

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

What would you say to a member of the FLDS church to show them that Warren Jeffs is not a prophet?

Almost anything they come up with can be turned right back at them.

This! Great question.

Here's one I asked my wife early after letting her know I no longer believed because she hounded me and asked things like "how could you do this? How can you leave the truth?"

If the Church were not true, would you want to know?

I hoped that might get her to think about whether it was possible the Church wasn't what it claimed to be. To my surprise, she said she wouldn't want to know. It didn't get her thinking about the veracity of the Church's claims, but later, when I reminded her that she told me she doesn't care about the truth regarding the Church, she seemed to get off her high horse. Maybe it got her thinking about how I perceived her badgering about the truth when it seemed to me like she didn't even care about the truth.

At any rate, it's a question that can illicit revealing responses. Even if it doesn't get them thinking, their response may help you see what you're dealing with. I lost some respect for my wife that day. Her response let me start seeing that she wasn't exactly the person I thought she was.

[lostinmiddlemormonism]

I loved reading these questions. The problem is though, that for TBMs, the ONLY answer is the church is true.

Why is it raining? Because God loves us and wants the flowers, fruits and vegetables to grow for his children.
Why is it sunny? Because God loves us and wants his children to enjoy the beautiful creation he has made.
Why did I find my car keys after I prayed? Because God loves you. He hears and answers every prayer.
Why did my child die after I prayed? Because Go d loves you and knew that this would be a great test and growing experience for you in mortality.
Why did Joseph have to restore the temple ordinances? Because evil men had changed them and Joseph restored the originals, word for word.
Whey did the temple ordinances change? Because God loves us and knew we were ready for a higher law.



When they have already decided on the answer...it doesn't matter what the question is.

-Lost

[slavereeno]

When they have already decided on the answer...it doesn't matter what the question is.

This. Absolutely this.

[Grace2Daisy]

If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?

I did

Let me first say, I believe having a dream is not a confirmation a spirit appeared to you, it is more possibly your inner mind working through some issues.

I had been struggling with church doctrine, and the overall direction and history of the church. My prayers began bedside with my DW, and even in the temple. I never received a confirmation one way or another. This too was puzzling given decades of being a solid TBM.

One evening my father and his brother (bishop & stake patriarch) appeared in a dream. I might add they were both wearing the clothes and hats they always wore playing golf, no whites at all. My father stood there with his brother's arm around his shoulders, and said, "It's simple, for the love of Christ. Nothing more than that." They both smiled, my father said it a second time and I woke up. At that point I knew the pure and simple teachings of Christ's love toward us, and our love toward others, was all that mattered. None of the rest of the new era doctrine we have been taught mattered.

I believe my deep subconscious was telling me I was over thinking things, and had been for decades. The "church" had made things much, much more complex than it needed to be, for various obvious reasons. At that point, I walked away from my callings and the "church" and began trying to live the pure simple teachings of Christ, trying hard to simply love myself and in turn love one another. . . . . so, my inner self bore witness of the truth. I purchased the Jefferson Bible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible) and have read it at least a dozen times, enjoying my new journey with a new acceptance of life and love.

[WholesomeRecreation]

If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?

I did. After my shelf crashed I spent 2-3 days in complete hell. When i came out of it I was mentally at peace knowing I could think clearly for the first time in my life about everything. Then a massive calm feeling came over me and I felt like I was floating in warmth for several hours. Now, I no longer interpret these experiences as "spiritual witnesses", but based on the LDS definition that was by far the strongest I'd ever felt- and completely unexpected. BTW, I consider this my reverse alma the younger experience...

[Wonderment]

To a particularly belligerent BIC TBM ridiculing you for not enduring to the end in the only-true-church: "And how is it that you came to be a member of the only true church? Did you search the world for truth and eliminate all other options before making your choice, or did it have something to do with where and when you happened to be born? What would your religion be if you had been born in Afghanistan? Would you be as convinced about the truthfulness of that religion? Take a look at a world map of the distributions of religions and see how easy it is to find a pattern of how people come to be members of their particular only-true-church."

To Mrs. Hagoth: "How does your sister feel about getting sealed to that widower, knowing that she'll also be married to his first wife for eternity?"

To religious people in general: "Can you demonstrate to me why your old book is any more valid than anyone else's old book?"

To testifying Mormons: Jehovah's Witnesses and Pentecostals bear testimonies as certain and powerful as yours. What's the difference?"

To someone who tells you that a testimony is found in the bearing of it: "So I should lie about it in front of a lot of people until I talk myself into it?"

To someone who claims a testimony of the Book of Mormon proves that the LDS church is true: "What about members of FLDS, Community of Christ, and all of the other Mormon factions who have a testimony of the Book of Mormon?"

To creationists: "I think the idea that life came about all by itself by natural processes is more wonderful and awe-inspiring than the idea that everything was hand built by some guy on a throne who is going to punish most of his children for eternity for various minor infractions and for doubting him."

To Mormons in general:
"If it's so important to God that everyone believes in the gold plates, why doesn't He just give them back? You say because faith is required? Isn't that what other sects say who want you to believe in their sacred stories?"

"Why do we put so much stock in the testimonies of three and eight witnesses of the gold plates, yet so easily dismiss thousands of eye witnesses of the Virgin Mary?" Why aren't the witnesses of James Strang's Nephite plates even worth considering?"

"Why did Joseph Smith change the "thus saith the Lord" revelations in the Book of Commandments, spoken directly to him by God, to say something entirely different in the Doctrine and Covenants version?"

"If our church leaders really believe in the Book of Abraham why isn't it on display for the world's scholars to marvel at, rather than stuffed in a 3-ring binder and buried in a library vault?"

"Why did our prophets, seers and revelators continue to believe in Mark Hoffman and pay him for forgeries of sacred and historical texts while he was murdering people to cover up his fraud? How could it be that the anti-Mormon Tanners saw through him while the First Presidency continued to believe and defend him?"

"Why does the leadership of our church reject the children of gay members stating that it only affects about 1% of our membership when Jesus taught that we should leave the 99% and reach out to the 1%? How did something that they admitted was a policy created by lawyers suddenly become a revelation from God because it didn't sit well with the less-bigoted membership?"

"Did you know the Proclamation on the Family was written by a lawyer named Richard Wilkins?"

"Have you ever heard of Helen Mar Kimball? Look her up."

"Can you imagine what it would be like to spend an entire year in a fully-enclosed boat that is tumbling through perpetual "monster waves" along with livestock, barrels of fish, bees, and all the food and water for you and those animals? And manure?"

Absolutely priceless. Hagoth FTW !

[Corsair]

"Can you imagine what it would be like to spend an entire year in a fully-enclosed boat that is tumbling through perpetual "monster waves" along with livestock, barrels of fish, bees, and all the food and water for you and those animals? And manure?"

Many stakes hold Pioneer Trek for their youth in the summer. Dress like pioneers and pull a handcart while having devotionals and some fun activities. Most of these are annoying, but fun enough and usually feed them well. I don't mind having teenagers get a chance to experience a tiny bit of how their 19th century ancestors lived.

But how about we give our youth a Book of Mormon experience? Let them spend a few days in a rocking barge with a flashlight at either end. Spend all day singing hymns and praying then flip the whole thing over once per day. Let them breath out of the hole in the top and poop out of a hole in the bottom. Add in a couple of farm animals and tell them to not remain calm to preserve fresh air. This would get some TBMs thinking.

[Hagoth]

But how about we give our youth a Book of Mormon experience? Let them spend a few days in a rocking barge with a flashlight at either end. Spend all day singing hymns and praying then flip the whole thing over once per day. Let them breath out of the hole in the top and poop out of a hole in the bottom. Add in a couple of farm animals and tell them to not remain calm to preserve fresh air. This would get some TBMs thinking.

I love it! How do we get this started?

[wtfluff]

But how about we give our youth a Book of Mormon experience? Let them spend a few days in a rocking barge with a flashlight at either end. Spend all day singing hymns and praying then flip the whole thing over once per day. Let them breath out of the hole in the top and poop out of a hole in the bottom. Add in a couple of farm animals and tell them to not remain calm to preserve fresh air. This would get some TBMs thinking.

I love it! How do we get this started?

You're the boat builder Hagoth; Get busy building some barges: Tight, like unto a dish!!!

In my opinion, glowing rocks would be better than flashlights. I'll go gather some nice, smooth river-stones, and dip them in phosphorescent paint. As the glow fades, we'll tell the kids they need to faith harder; it is mormonism we're riffing on after all. (OK, maybe we better go with black-light paint, and a black light source that will last the entire time of the "Jaredite Trek" experience.)