NOM

Apples and oranges, comparing publicly traded corporate conglomerates to a massively profitable regional religious institution. Yes they are all corporate entities, or act through incorporated surrogates, but I'm not sure your financial rules of thumb are directly applicable here. Wouldn't comparisons with other large religions be more appropriate?

Does anyone know if the Catholic church is incorporated to the nuts like the LDS church is? Maybe not applicable, since Catholic, Inc. HQ would be the Vatican. Quick, somebody tally up what the Vatican is worth!

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:09 pm I hope I don't step on anyone's temple toes but isn't the answer "We have sufficient for our NEEDS" when asked "have you any money"?

Ah, but notice how the answer fits nicely into Obi Wan's, "what I told you was true from a certain point of view" model of technically correct speech.

Say you need about $2,000 per month to meet your needs. If you make $2,000 per minute you have sufficient for your needs.

Have you any money?

We have sufficient for our needs and a $#!+ ton more on top of that.

nibbler wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:30 am

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:09 pm I hope I don't step on anyone's temple toes but isn't the answer "We have sufficient for our NEEDS" when asked "have you any money"?

Ah, but notice how the answer fits nicely into Obi Wan's, "what I told you was true from a certain point of view" model of technically correct speech.

Say you need about $2,000 per month to meet your needs. If you make $2,000 per minute you have sufficient for your needs.

Have you any money?

We have sufficient for our needs and a $#!+ ton more on top of that.

Let's see....would that be considered paltering, parsimony, obfuscation or rationalization?

Arcturus wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:27 am Lastly, why the hell should poor Mormons in Africa pay tithing? Why the hell isn't the church constructing education facilities in 3rd world countries and getting into the micro loan business? Why the hell isn't the church dominating humanitarian efforts relative to other world religions?

I'm glad to see someone from this field scrutinizing the data and asking these questions. As someone who no longer pays tithing but still pays taxes it grinds on me to think about the COB's exempt status.

In the other thread I was also interested to see how different the COB is from other faiths in terms of the revenue vs. humanitarian $$ ratios. I think this is one of the big falacies TBMs believe about their church, that it's the biggest bestest at everything in the world.

Arcturus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:16 am

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:58 am
I think it is only fair to point out that the church does not always operate like a rational business.

These are all great points EternityIsNow. This speculation depends completely on a set of assumptions that could be wrong. I also scratch my head considering how they could have amassed hundreds of billions in only a few decades.

When was the last bankruptcy scare that the church went through?

May have been 1959. That was the last year they released public financial reports, and I believe it had to do with bad investment on the church's part.

DPRoberts wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:11 pm

Arcturus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:16 am

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:58 am
I think it is only fair to point out that the church does not always operate like a rational business.

These are all great points EternityIsNow. This speculation depends completely on a set of assumptions that could be wrong. I also scratch my head considering how they could have amassed hundreds of billions in only a few decades.

When was the last bankruptcy scare that the church went through?

May have been 1959. That was the last year they released public financial reports, and I believe it had to do with bad investment on the church's part.

It was overspending by building meetinghouses to accommodate expected unprecedented growth, due to President Baseball Baptisms:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_D._Moyle

A sunstone article on both baseball baptisms and overspending by D. Michael Quinn:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/093-30-44.pdf

Archimedes wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:26 am Does anyone know if the Catholic church is incorporated to the nuts like the LDS church is? Maybe not applicable, since Catholic, Inc. HQ would be the Vatican. Quick, somebody tally up what the Vatican is worth!

I did some really brief reading online to try and look into this and it appears that Catholicism is far less centralized and organized compared to Mormonism. Supposedly each diocese is its own separate legal and financial entity and the Vatican is separate from them all. In aggregate, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Catholicism has over $1 trillion. Then again they spend a lot of money on (costly) humanitarian efforts such as hospitals. Unlike Mormons, who really only seem to care about themselves for the most part.

As for the possibility of Mormonism's wealth rise occurring only in approximately 4-5 decades (assuming they seriously turned things around post-1959) - if you contrast the church's wealth trajectory to that of Warren Buffet's it's possible. Like Archimedes said, they are apples-and-oranges in comparison but the LDS church has the benefit of a significant and persistent infusion of capital annually in the form of contributions (something Warren has never had, in contrast). If the wealth advisors for the church are only a few steps behind Warren's ability and aptitude (which I think is possible), then hundreds of billions is definitely a possibility.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/from- ... 2015-08-17

And as for who the church's wealth advisors might be... I have a good friend who had some of his investments professionally managed by a BYU alum working in a Hedge Fund, who purportedly earned over 20% for him every year. All was fine and dandy for him until the church hired this guy away and he closed up his fund. This was back around 2014.

This anecdote is what gives me confidence in the assumption that the church is very sophisticated in their wealth management which would include them generally following tried and proven financial guidance of long-term wealth creation.

Arcturus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:28 pm This anecdote is what gives me confidence in the assumption that the church is very sophisticated in their wealth management which would include them generally following tried and proven financial guidance of long-term wealth creation.

I am familiar with a person who at one time worked for the church managing large bond portfolios. I can verify that the church hires Ivy League educated professionals who are extremely proficient at making the church money. This person is ultra mega TBM so no info has ever slipped except for once he said, during a conversation concerning a recent large real estate venture the church undertook, “Um, the church has no problem making purchases of this size.”

w2mz wrote: ↑Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:33 pm I am familiar with a person who at one time worked for the church managing large bond portfolios. I can verify that the church hires Ivy League educated professionals who are extremely proficient at making the church money. This person is ultra mega TBM so no info has ever slipped except for once he said, during a conversation concerning a recent large real estate venture the church undertook, “Um, the church has no problem making purchases of this size.”

Here is another area where, in my mind, the Church's financial situation diverges from the big corporate entities it has been compared to in this thread. The Church has huge assets in property and buildings. And they are all paid for: lock, stock and barrel. Every church building and the land it sits on, every seminary building, every temple, every mission home ($$$), every Bishop's storehouse, every church farm, every hunting preserve. The church does not finance these things, it pays cash. So what do you think the total value of property holdings is for the church, worldwide?

Bottom line, the LDS church is extremely wealthy and it makes me sick that they won't pay janitors to clean the buildings.

Arcturus, thank you for initiating this thread and sharing your expertise with the board. The actual numbers are of course not available, which is to me the most concerning thing. I cannot have faith in a religion that works in darkness like this.