NOM

Reuben wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 2:14 pm

Kalikala wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 12:49 pm I have a good friend that offered to go on a little temple trip, just the two of us, because she knows I've struggled with my husband leaving the church. I haven't told her about my FC. So I'm slightly horrified and at the same time morbidly curious to go to the temple again. Last time I went I was fully believing. Part of me hopes I can find some kind of positive in it since it is likely that I will be faking it for quite some time.

Here are a few things that helped me enjoy the endowment intellectually when I was a NOM-leaning TBM and starting to get bored silly with it.

1. Start with this idea and work backwards. At the veil, you're given God the Father's administrator password. Then you log in as him.

2. Find Jesus. The atonement is the fall in reverse, and vice-versa. (Adam taken out of ground, Jesus put in the ground, etc.) Another way to put it: the atonement is all about returning to an innocent garden-of-Eden-like state by doing the fall backwards.

3. Where did the coats of skins given to Adam and Eve come from? It was the first sacrifice, a symbol of Christ. This suggests what the garment means, and it's not the ability to survive a fire or stop a bullet.

This is rather beautiful stuff to me, which is unfortunately ruined by other aspects of the temple.

If you can give yourself emotional distance, you could approach these next two like an anthropologist. Warning: if you do, you might become averse to going back.

4. Learn about the penalties that were removed in 1990, and the connections between the signs and penalties. (Honestly, they're horrifying.)

5. Identify every method of social control used, starting before you enter the temple.

nibbler wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 11:42 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 6:43 am

Reuben wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 2:13 amI think because the reality of the church's claims must exist entirely your head, whether you get cardboard or filet mignon depends on whether you believe in the claims.

learn something new every time I stick my head in a cardboard box.

And I hear it helps if you put a rock in it.

Reuben wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 5:12 pm

Coop wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 1:39 pm When does it make sense, to do something, that doesn't make sense?

When you trust the person who asked you to do it, or you trust someone who says that it works, or you have direct experience that it works.

We do this all the time. I'm tapping on a piece of glass to converse with a stranger. That's weird! How does it even work? Some people know, and we trust them, and we have direct experience and testimony from others.

The temple can work like that. To get much out of it, though, the church's metaphysics have to be real enough for you. Otherwise it's just a really quiet castle full of old people where you have to put on funny clothes and say and do things you don't really mean.

græy wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 6:04 pm

Reuben wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 5:12 pm

Coop wrote: ↑Sun May 20, 2018 1:39 pm When does it make sense, to do something, that doesn't make sense?

When you trust the person who asked you to do it, or you trust someone who says that it works, or you have direct experience that it works.

This. I feel that most of us spent most of our lives trusting parents and/or church authorities that even though it didn't make sense if you thought too deeply, it was still worth while in the long run.

After realizing that the church uses the same half-truths that we malign Lucifer for, I began to question everything. I came to the conclusion that my own personal experience is the only thing I can really thoroughly trust.

I do not blindly trust the church when they tell me the temple means something, and my own experience/reasoning tells me it has too many contradictions and stolen masonry bits (unintentional pun!?) to be real. And just like that the temple is a joke, a time sink, and cult mindset reinforcement mechanism which I want nothing more to do with.

Coop wrote:

græy wrote:

Reuben wrote:

When you trust the person who asked you to do it, or you trust someone who says that it works, or you have direct experience that it works.

This. I feel that most of us spent most of our lives trusting parents and/or church authorities that even though it didn't make sense if you thought too deeply, it was still worth while in the long run.

After realizing that the church uses the same half-truths that we malign Lucifer for, I began to question everything. I came to the conclusion that my own personal experience is the only thing I can really thoroughly trust.

I do not blindly trust the church when they tell me the temple means something, and my own experience/reasoning tells me it has too many contradictions and stolen masonry bits (unintentional pun!?) to be real. And just like that the temple is a joke, a time sink, and cult mindset reinforcement mechanism which I want nothing more to do with.

Not to be too blunt but why would you trust your parents and/or church authorities if they are asking you to do something that doesn't make sense? Especially if you eventually find out that they were lying. Who purposefully lies to someone to get them to do something that doesn't make sense? Can I suggest that there is something else going on here?

Coop wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am Not to be too blunt but why would you trust your parents and/or church authorities if they are asking you to do something that doesn't make sense? Especially if you eventually find out that they were lying.

• Because there was no "temple prep" class at the time

• Because most my attending family went through while penalties were still a thing, they would have had to kill themselves if they spoke about it

Coop wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am Who purposefully lies to someone to get them to do something that doesn't make sense?

Coop wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am Can I suggest that there is something else going on here?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:59 am

Coop wrote:

græy wrote:

This. I feel that most of us spent most of our lives trusting parents and/or church authorities that even though it didn't make sense if you thought too deeply, it was still worth while in the long run.

After realizing that the church uses the same half-truths that we malign Lucifer for, I began to question everything. I came to the conclusion that my own personal experience is the only thing I can really thoroughly trust.

I do not blindly trust the church when they tell me the temple means something, and my own experience/reasoning tells me it has too many contradictions and stolen masonry bits (unintentional pun!?) to be real. And just like that the temple is a joke, a time sink, and cult mindset reinforcement mechanism which I want nothing more to do with.

Not to be too blunt but why would you trust your parents and/or church authorities if they are asking you to do something that doesn't make sense? Especially if you eventually find out that they were lying. Who purposefully lies to someone to get them to do something that doesn't make sense? Can I suggest that there is something else going on here?

I think there is an inherent mentality to follower along that's built into the ritual itself. Nobody truly thinks about any if this deeply. They just go along because everyone else does and the group think creates peer pressure to play along.

Nature is full of examples of this group behavior.

Did you know that if you hold out a cane in front of the lead sheep and force it to jump over the cane that every sheep after that will still jump at the exact spot even after the obstacle is removed?

Mormons are no different.

græy wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 10:44 am

Coop wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am Not to be too blunt but why would you trust your parents and/or church authorities if they are asking you to do something that doesn't make sense? Especially if you eventually find out that they were lying.

Because I did trust my parents about most everything, especially the church. They are my parents.

Because my parents told me the church leaders were trust-worthy.

Because I had been told my entire life that I needed to go on a mission because God wanted me to do it.

Because going through the temple was a requirement to go on a mission.

Because what actually happens in the temple is secret and no one would tell me what to really expect.

• Because there was no "temple prep" class at the time

• Because most my attending family went through while penalties were still a thing, they would have had to kill themselves if they spoke about it

Because I had 30+ family members including grandparents, aunts/uncles, and cousins all in attendance at the temple.

Because I had dozens if not hundreds of people cheering me on towards a mission and backing out on the temple would have been social suicide within the worlds of both my friends and my family.

Because the woman I love wanted nothing if not a temple wedding.

Because my family constantly talks shit about anyone who decides to leave the church, and I don't want them to treat me that way.

Because I don't want to lose my wife/children if I announce how little it all means to me.

Because I didn't know they were lying. I was told by those I trusted (see above) not to read certain things because those things were lies and would destroy me. Now the "lies" are truths, and the "truths" it turns out are half-truths at best.

Coop wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am Who purposefully lies to someone to get them to do something that doesn't make sense?

Someone who doesn't know any better themselves. Because their parents/family/church leaders told them the same thing. Turtles on turtles.

Coop wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am Can I suggest that there is something else going on here?

Yes, please. If I'm missing something, I'd love to know what it is. What else is going on here?

Coop wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 6:40 pm When I ask the question, "When does it make sense, to do something, that doesn't make sense?" to someone in person I typically get a different answer then what I got in this tread. If you think about the question there is really only one answer and that is that it never makes sense to do something that doesn't make sense. This is the typical answer I get one on one because most people get that this a trick question.