NOM

I think to me it's both... his immoral behaviors that went against the revelations he used to bail himself out take away any credibility people should give him.

He's imperfect? Yeah, of course, but that doesn't mean he's still worth following.

I talked with my wife about this today, since she wanted to know what happened with the missionaries. She basically concedes that JS was a bad person in many ways, but then says what he brought here means something. I brought up Isaiah, which she had no idea about, and the Book of Abraham as two areas that take away all scriptural credibility.

She clearly doesn't believe me, but I think once you take away the scriptural credibility and then realize JS used the threat of God to have sex with women... it's just over.

Of course DW is reading Terryl Givens books, so she is cherry picking a few things they have gotten right while learning to ignore all of the wrongs. For example she mentioned how the church led the charge in ending infant baptisms, even though that was a product of his time... (insert internal scream)

Maybe some day... but until then I'm going to try and work to save someone from this church that continues to destroy families with absolute lies. I can't save the missionaries, but maybe I got some ideas to them they are destined to hear from someone much less kind about it.

jfro18 wrote:I think to me it's both... his immoral behaviors that went against the revelations he used to bail himself out take away any credibility people should give him.

He's imperfect? Yeah, of course, but that doesn't mean he's still worth following.

I talked with my wife about this today, since she wanted to know what happened with the missionaries. She basically concedes that JS was a bad person in many ways, but then says what he brought here means something. I brought up Isaiah, which she had no idea about, and the Book of Abraham as two areas that take away all scriptural credibility.

She clearly doesn't believe me, but I think once you take away the scriptural credibility and then realize JS used the threat of God to have sex with women... it's just over.

Of course DW is reading Terryl Givens books, so she is cherry picking a few things they have gotten right while learning to ignore all of the wrongs. For example she mentioned how the church led the charge in ending infant baptisms, even though that was a product of his time... (insert internal scream)

Maybe some day... but until then I'm going to try and work to save someone from this church that continues to destroy families with absolute lies. I can't save the missionaries, but maybe I got some ideas to them they are destined to hear from someone much less kind about it.

Go to 4:27 in this video of Mark Staker talking about how we misinterpret the context of all the early revelations. His example hits on that infant baptism concept. Essentially, all the Campbellite converts were already against infant baptism and baptizing only adults. The revelation was saying its ok to baptize kids as young as 8.

https://youtu.be/sG4T4rgfOYA

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Wed May 30, 2018 10:43 amGo to 4:27 in this video of Mark Staker talking about how we misinterpret the context of all the early revelations. His example hits on that infant baptism concept. Essentially, all the Campbellite converts were already against infant baptism and baptizing only adults. The revelation was saying its ok to baptize kids as young as 8.

https://youtu.be/sG4T4rgfOYA

That's an interesting approach to it. I don't think that would do much for her though - I told her that wasn't a new idea and that the Campbellites had it (along with the priesthood.. interesting, right?), but she just said infant baptism is wrong because we aren't born with sin. I asked her if that was true why did we ban blacks for 130+ years...

She admits there are no answers... and just like the missionaries yesterday, you can tell that on some level they know it's wrong but their brains just will not allow it to process.

I would, if they return keep on doing what you're doing: be kind, be polite, be calm. I would only offer that sometimes it's fun to stab someone with their own knife.

Ask, have you prayed about:

the importance of marrying multiple women
the truth of the seer/peep stone method
Joseph not teaching from the BoM
what "written by Abraham's own hand" means
the "need" for racism (or whatever reason is given for the denial of saving ordinances)
why are children punished for their parents sins

If you're not in the place where you're capable of inspiration--they are...right? Pray with them if they will.

Curious to see how they react.

I think it would be interesting to watch the Bushman fireside on youtube with the missionaries where he states the dominant narrative is not true and can't be sustained, and the church is saving the grandmothers at the expense of the grandsons and then ask the missionaries what they think Dr. Bushman is talking about.

Audio is horrible but here it is:

2 min clip:
https://youtu.be/uKuBw9mpV9w

Full 2 hour fireside:
https://youtu.be/ncTFWK2jnqA