NOM

Jeffret wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 1:24 pm

alas wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 12:32 pm but even the SCOTUS has ruled differently with sex than with race. So, I am wondering if there will be exceptions made for troops that do not want to allow girls.

For now, that's the official policy. Packs can choose whether to admit girls, though outside of Mormonism I think the vast majority are going to. Troops have to be sex-segregated. On paper.

But, unless they always stay cloistered away in their segregated world, they're going to encounter co-ed activities. And as time goes by, that's going to become the default. At least in general society. If Mormons manage to resist that, they'll only widen that gulf and deepen their problems.

When has widening the gulf or deepening their problems ever bothered the church? They have God on their side after all. Who cares how far away from the rest of evil society they get? And they just don't think they can afford to spend the kind of money on the girls that they spend on the boys. So, they will be drug kicking and screaming into the current century.

alas wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 1:43 pm When has widening the gulf or deepening their problems ever bothered the church? They have God on their side after all. Who cares how far away from the rest of evil society they get? And they just don't think they can afford to spend the kind of money on the girls that they spend on the boys. So, they will be drug kicking and screaming into the current century.

That's what they want you to believe, but they always track societal changes. Faithful Mormon women commonly wear jeans these days and even appropriate length shorts. Most couples practice birth control, mostly without consulting their bishop on it. Few of the men know they are expected to consult their bishop before a vasectomy. They'll always be dragged kicking and screaming as things change, but nonetheless they are.

They have to keep a tension between being different and being too different. Without that tension, they lack that special uniqueness that inspires people to donate all of the time and money they demand. But, if the tension becomes too great then the members don't follow along to do what they're told. They just ignore the directive, as for example as happened repeatedly with birth control, or they move on.

This is an ongoing change that they're going to find themselves in the middle of, with no simple way out. I'm also skeptical that they'll adopt Scouts for girls, but they'll lose their easy justification for spending less on girls, that the boys program with its patches and camps and outings is simply more expensive. It's going to be interesting one way or another.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 2:01 pm

alas wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 1:43 pm When has widening the gulf or deepening their problems ever bothered the church? They have God on their side after all. Who cares how far away from the rest of evil society they get? And they just don't think they can afford to spend the kind of money on the girls that they spend on the boys. So, they will be drug kicking and screaming into the current century.

That's what they want you to believe, but they always track societal changes. Faithful Mormon women commonly wear jeans these days and even appropriate length shorts. Most couples practice birth control, mostly without consulting their bishop on it. Few of the men know they are expected to consult their bishop before a vasectomy. They'll always be dragged kicking and screaming as things change, but nonetheless they are.

They have to keep a tension between being different and being too different. Without that tension, they lack that special uniqueness that inspires people to donate all of the time and money they demand. But, if the tension becomes too great then the members don't follow along to do what they're told. They just ignore the directive, as for example as happened repeatedly with birth control, or they move on.

This is an ongoing change that they're going to find themselves in the middle of, with no simple way out. I'm also skeptical that they'll adopt Scouts for girls, but they'll lose their easy justification for spending less on girls, that the boys program with its patches and camps and outings is simply more expensive. It's going to be interesting one way or another.

True all. What I think will happen is that within the next 20 years, the church will drop scouting. Then they are going to have to face up to the financial disparity between spending for boys and girls. I think they are still going to want to treat the boys special, but it will be harder to justify. Maybe a special preparation for priesthood program. I don't really expect to live to see equality between the sexes in the church.

Not to derail the conversation, after this news broke I saw a few TBM posting on Facebook how it's time to get the 'heck' out of the BSA. Most of their reasoning was the Friends of Scouting program did nothing but increase the salary for the leadership of the BSA.

Gaslighting and Mormon bandwagoning at its finest

Jeffret wrote: ↑Thu May 03, 2018 11:47 am
Cub Packs, for kids 6-10, are already starting to integrate. A pack must have separate dens for boys and girls, but they are allowed to meet together. Given the difficulty in recruiting leaders, practically that means that in most (non-Mormon) packs the boys and girls will be mixed in the same activities. Not sure yet how that will play out in Mormon packs. Cubs can go on limited camping outings, so the coed camping problems, whatever they are, exist right now.

Just to clarify, the Cub camping program outside the church is family camping, and is typically one or two campouts a year. We bring our teen daughter, other families bring their teenaged sons, we all watch our kids pretty closely and know where they are. It's really not that big of a deal. (In the spirit of full disclosure, DD has no interest in the boys who typically camp with us, and they are scared of her and me, so I have nothing to worry about. If I had a real Romeo on my hands, then I would feel differently, but since it's family camping I have a good sense of what's going on).

Here's the take of a semi-ex-Mormon Eagle Scout who now is very involved with 2 different scouting organizations that are run out of 2 different non-LDS Churches. (In case you're wondering why: I have 3 boys, 1 Scout and 2 Cubs, the Cub Pack does not have a chartered troop, so we found one we like at another church and the Scout goes there now).

LDS Scouts and Non-LDS Scouts are two completely different animals, and the non-LDS version is WAY better. If your daughter wants to join Scouts, find a good non-LDS group to send her to and get involved. If your son wants a really good scouting experience, find a good non-LDS group to send him to and get involved. If he/she doesn't understand it, doesn't like it, or wants to do something else, stop going and find something else for them to do. It's not for everyone just like football isn't for everyone. If you're a leader of an LDS Scouting group and don't have the vision, get out. You're not doing yourself or the boys any favors by running a half-massed program.

The co-ed thing will certainly lead to BSA (they retain that as their corporate name) and LDS finalizing their divorce. BSA is wise to do so as LDS is the abusive spouse and had for a long time convinced BSA that unless they toe the line, they will fail. This, in my opinion is a significant root cause to the enrollment problem outside of the LDS faith. By opening themselves up to allow 50% of the population in and ending their terrible stance on homosexuality, they'll loose Mormon kids, but gain girls and moms.

It's a good trade and I'm proud they've done it. I have a lot of respect for the program and look forward to welcoming girls into our pack next year which will be my first as a cub master (which coincidentally I volunteered to do and did not have to wait for a bishop to hear a still small voice tell him that I should be called to the sacred and holy position of cub master).

foolmeonce wrote: Just to clarify, the Cub camping program outside the church is family camping, and is typically one or two campouts a year.

I don't think that's entirely true. As a Cub Scout my son's den went camping without all the families. There were also many other dens from other packs in attendance. Looks like our council still offers that experience for older Cubs, though more of the sessions are indeed family camps. See https://longspeakbsa.org/programs/camps ... -schedule/

It appears goodboy is more of a prophet than RMN. I am glad my kids won't have to attend whatever lame indoctrination program takes the place of scouting.

Alright, we can finally have a a scouting program that's focused entirely on priesthood related activities, run by men who want to be there even less than the boys. I'm so jealous I wasted my youth on regular scouting.

Message from the Presidential Newsroom:

"Scouts may come and
Scouts may go and
We never change our point of view,
But when you admit scouting girls
We dust our boots of you!"
-- May 8, 2018, Salt Lake City

At the bottom of this statement, the words hot drinks that warm the belly were crossed out and the words "thanks for all the fish" were substituted. No further clarification was forthcoming.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue May 08, 2018 9:23 pm Alright, we can finally have a a scouting program that's focused entirely on priesthood related activities, run by men who want to be there even less than the boys. I'm so jealous I wasted my youth on regular scouting.

We used to do the personal progress with the boys once a week. Wow did we, the leaders, and the boys both just hate those weeks.

Think of the terrific new merit badge possibilities:

-Indexing
-Not Masturbating
-Postmortem Watersports
-Missionary Prep
-Celibacy Prep
-Female and Homosexual Avoidance
-Fundamentals of Following the Prophet (collect all 14)
-White Hanky Waving
-Competitive Precision Sacrament Passing
-Lying For The Lord
-One-On-One Interview Mastery
-Passive Aggression
-And so many more.