NOM

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:26 am

• All truth is found in the church

This particular item seems like the major impediment to all other reforms in the Church. If not for this faulty belief, members could see both the folly and the humor of being told repeatedly to obey the Church's hierarchy of leadership - even when it violates member's good conscience.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:24 am That makes sense and I appreciate the perspective. I think though, that the BoM as its read now, or as the leadership of the church has taught it since essentially the inception of the church, it supports the sin next to murder narrative. While I can certainly see an alternative reading to it based on the resource you provided, I have to base what I'm refuting on the current and past teachings of the church which, in this case, agree with each other.
<snip>
When I write that it's BoM teaching, I think it's important to address it as its taught in the church.

Perhaps.

But, that wasn't my intention. Nor do think that's the most important lesson to teach.

It's a demonstration of critical thinking and that's a much more important lesson. It's also a demonstration that when leaders pronounce something, they may not actually be correct.

It's impossible to disprove the statement that "sexual sin is next to murder". That's based on a value judgement and in the LDS community it's based upon the authority of leaders. If someone actually bothers to read the scriptures closely and critically, it's not difficult to understand that the BoM doesn't state that "sexual sin is next to murder". And that leaders who say it does are wrong.

These are all valuable lessons.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:34 pm

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:24 am That makes sense and I appreciate the perspective. I think though, that the BoM as its read now, or as the leadership of the church has taught it since essentially the inception of the church, it supports the sin next to murder narrative. While I can certainly see an alternative reading to it based on the resource you provided, I have to base what I'm refuting on the current and past teachings of the church which, in this case, agree with each other.
<snip>
When I write that it's BoM teaching, I think it's important to address it as its taught in the church.

Perhaps.

But, that wasn't my intention. Nor do think that's the most important lesson to teach.

It's a demonstration of critical thinking and that's a much more important lesson. It's also a demonstration that when leaders pronounce something, they may not actually be correct.

It's impossible to disprove the statement that "sexual sin is next to murder". That's based on a value judgement and in the LDS community it's based upon the authority of leaders. If someone actually bothers to read the scriptures closely and critically, it's not difficult to understand that the BoM doesn't state that "sexual sin is next to murder". And that leaders who say it does are wrong.

These are all valuable lessons.

Another fair point. What I should have said is that I don't want to feel like I'm making excuses for the BoM by providing an easy out. That seems like apologetics to me and it just doesn't hold water IMO. That said, I certainly appreciate your point about teaching them to be critical thinkers. I think I was more worried about them buying an apologist argument as truth rather than letting them examine it critically and dismiss it as folly.

I'm also worried that if they see those as the only two explanations, and reject the apologist explanation, that they then internalize the idea that if they commit sexual sin they're next to murderers in God's eyes. There is, of course, a third option. For it to be a viable option for them though, they have to be in a place first where they are comfortable rejecting teachings of the church as fallacious.

I'm enjoying this conversation a lot more with everyone than if you'd just given me a list like I asked for. I didn't post it on Reddit because it would become a BIDWT post in the comments, I much prefer the back and forth here.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:00 pm Another fair point. What I should have said is that I don't want to feel like I'm making excuses for the BoM by providing an easy out. That seems like apologetics to me and it just doesn't hold water IMO. That said, I certainly appreciate your point about teaching them to be critical thinkers. I think I was more worried about them buying an apologist argument as truth rather than letting them examine it critically and dismiss it as folly.

When I wrote that comment I considered adding a comment about how the BoM is all made-up anyway, but then I decided that wasn't really necessary. If anything it's the next step in the analysis.

I believe that if they learn critical thinking, particularly if you model it for them, they'll figure out the value of the different explanations.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:06 pm

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:49 amThe fear that I have, and that I keep going back to is discussions around LGBTQ. My daughter is 13yo and has been taught her entire life that homosexuality is a sin and that it's wrong. We can love people, but not the sin, etc. I recognize now how harmful this is. I worry about how she would feel if she's questioning her sexuality and feels like she has no support. I worry about my 3yo, who is way too young to understand or concern herself with sexuality, but may still grow up in a church that demonizes it. I worry about the messages about sexuality in general, avoiding sexual thoughts, etc, that even outside the parameters of LGBT issues are harmful.

It's less important that you teach your daughter what's right here than that you figure it out for yourself and then model it. They need to understand what you think on the topics, that you accept different people, and most importantly that you love and accept your children. Even when they've had the evils of LGBTQ heavily preached to them, the younger generation isn't buying it.

My youngest three kids ages 11-16 aren't buying it. I attribute this to increasing normalization online, watching Queer Eye with them (it's so good at humanizing), having frank discussions about sexual orientation with them (and because it's me this includes the latest research), my support of gay rights, their mother's softening on gay rights, and the fact that my oldest has come out of the closet to the next older two. In the space of a year or so, my youngest has gone from hating depictions of same-sex relationships in television shows to saying there's nothing wrong with it and having gay characters in her stories.

My oldest, who is 18 and is actually gay (5 on the Kinsey scale) is the only one still buying into the evils of LGBTQ. I figure my faith crisis was about two years too late for her to benefit from it. I think your 13-year-old will be fine in this respect, IT_Veteran, if as Jeffret says you figure out what you believe and model it.

FWIW, it took me about two months to rid myself of my automatic aversion to gay couples after I decided there was nothing wrong with them. I did it by forcing myself to look at photos of couples that caused the merest trace of disgust. The selfie trains on r/exmormon helped a lot. Now seeing gay couples warms the cockles of my hard apostate heart. Sometimes we need intentional deprogramming.

When my wife came out to me as bisexual, I realized what an ass I’d been. I realized it to a certain degree already, and that’s what made her comfortable enough to tell me, but it really hit home when I realized she’d been carrying that her whole life.

I was kind of surprised when my 13yo came and watched Will and Grace with us, now we invite her. I’m definitely going to take a look at Queer Eye though.

I still remember when my oldest was 8-9 years old he thought gay was a bad word. Even when I was TBM I knew I had messed up in that regard.

They’re both pretty good critical thinkers now. Even the 3yo is learning about that.