NOM

Upon further reflection, the local leaders and members have not been overbearing, with a couple of exceptions. The general leadership is stuck in the “we have the truth” mode, and seem to lack the vision and humility to break out and seek more truth. I’m reminded of the old proverb. Seek those who searching for truth, avoid those who have found the truth.

I want a tribe that doesn't require me to conform to impossible standards (e.g. have a testimony of the restoration) in order to fully belong.

I think the truth and goodness I want would eventually infuse that environment.

I want the church to see itself as it really is: a fraud, a cult. And then verbalize this.
The church is not providing honesty and integrity at he highest leadership levels.
I want freedom from the chains it holds on me.

I agree with those wanting truth as far as being fully in the church. I think though that I could attend, occasionally, with my wife though if it provided inclusion, intellectual honesty, engaged in self-reflection as an organization (which would lead to all sorts of institutional changes), proper boundaries and respect for them, was more humble about it's truth claims (though that might just be repeating intellectual honesty), and preached kindness and love and not obedience. Oh, and wasn't so ridiculously boring.

Mind you, that wouldn't make me believe in Mormonism but I might just be willing to show up for the Ward Christmas Party or go every once in a blue moon with the wife.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:36 pm Upon further reflection, the local leaders and members have not been overbearing, with a couple of exceptions.

In my experience being overbearing is par for the course. When worthiness interview are mandatory (I make a distinction between voluntary confessionals and mandated worthiness interviews) it is overbearing. When a leader tries to guilt or threaten members into accepting callings it is overbearing. When assignments are handed out without even bothering to ask first it is overbearing. When an interview is scheduled without informing the interviewee of the purpose of the meeting it is overbearing. When church members just show up at your door on church business without scheduling or at least calling first it is overbearing. When a Bishop or other church leader divulges confidential information in PEC or Ward Council it is overbearing. When the PEC or Ward council makes someone a ward project without considering if that person wants to be a ward project it is overbearing.

True, it isn't par for the course for a Bishop to rant and rave at you like some iconic bad manager but Mormonism (in my experience) is a low to mid-level soup of overbearing behavior.

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:22 pm

alas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:08 am The truth.

This. Full stop.

I like the idea of the church providing the truth, but they don't have it. Nobody really does.

I would take the church being honest, and being a group of people honestly seeking the truth, wherever it may lead.

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:48 am

What is that you want that the church isn't providing?

A rebirth of wonder.

I'll stick with the penguin's phrasing.

I can think of many things that frustrate me within the Church, but I would not put those in the "provide" category.

Oh, and good music (e.g. paid organists) would also be nice.

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:20 pm

Stig wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:22 pm

alas wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:08 am The truth.

This. Full stop.

I like the idea of the church providing the truth, but they don't have it. Nobody really does.

I would take the church being honest, and being a group of people honestly seeking the truth, wherever it may lead.

I guess that's kind of my point. They don't have the truth, so there's no point to the organization beyond that. They made an absolute claim to truth; they don't have it. End of story.

I appreciate everyone's responses and they all resonate to some degree.

Deepthinker wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:33 am An interesting question, for sure. I'm not sure how I would answer that honestly without coming out as full non-believer...Maybe another way to look at is to change the question: How could the church change its product so that I would want it? Thinking about that question for me, I'm still not sure what changes that would take.

And I guess this is where I am. I don't know how to answer and keep my non-belief to myself. And when it comes down to it, it really is just a product I'm not interested in. At all. It's like asking what's Marlboro not providing for me and the answer is I'm simply not interested in cigarettes. Maybe if they got into a different business, like selling heirloom roses or something, then maybe we could talk.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:22 am First is the neo-faithful response. I want the authorized ordinances of salvation and a path back to Heavenly Father. Technically, this does not need to be much more than baptism, one trip to the temple, along with being kind to each other. That's it.

This is exactly how I lived most of my life as a believer. I wasn't happy and I didn't enjoy it and it didn't work for me, but I went along because I believed that I needed the ordinances. Without The Truth there was nothing left. And that brings us back to community, which I think is the only reason it makes sense to stay, but I never really got anything out of that even as a believer.

There's mention of community by many and in an ideal sense, I suppose a community where I could be heard and be a part of, where I could explore truth and ideas might be nice, but I have no interest in the church providing it. And sometimes I'm cynical enough to think that while I like the idea of community, I have no interest in really being a part of one. Maybe I've lived too long on the outside looking in.

Truth
Honesty
Genuine caring
Humility
A cessation of spiritual coercion.