NOM

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:58 am I've heard criticism that this is ambush journalism on an 80 something year old man who may have Alzheimer's. However after listening he seems to remember plenty of detail and seems coherent.

I am sure there will be members who say things like this because they are more concerned about the Church looking bad than what Joseph Bishop did to this poor woman. And my response would be - are you really going to criticize a sexual assault victim who confronts the man who assaulted her? Are you the kind of person who would do that? And do you know what it says about you if you are?

What was she supposed to do - wait until he decided to come forward on his own?

He was there when I was in the MTC. He actually ordained me to the Melchizedek Priesthood when I arrived. He said he would send me a line of authority but I never got it. I am going to listen to the whole recording to see exactly who this man was.

He was a Mission President in Argentina when my brother-in-law was there. From what I understand the abuse started back when he was a bishop years before he was mission president. Also a GA was notified but did nothing.

I am listening to the Mormon Stories interview about this on Facebook right now. I think this is going to be a major problem.

Here is a link to the Facebook live interview of Ryan McKnight:

https://www.facebook.com/mormonstories/ ... 199764301/

Imagine you're an 18 year old kid who's bishop is delaying your mission for masturbating or looking at boobies.

Then you hear about this guy.

How can the church possibly punish horny kids for being horny kids while this guy walks?

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:50 am Imagine you're an 18 year old kid who bishop is delaying your mission for masturbating or looking at boobies.

Then you hear about this guy.

How can the church possibly punish horny kids for being horny kids while this guy walks?

The best theory out there is that this Bishop guy got his second anointing. That basically puts you into a whole different system as far as church authority goes. I don't know how it works, but those guys seem to be nearly untouchable.

oliver_denom wrote:

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:50 am Imagine you're an 18 year old kid who bishop is delaying your mission for masturbating or looking at boobies.

Then you hear about this guy.

How can the church possibly punish horny kids for being horny kids while this guy walks?

The best theory out there is that this Bishop guy got his second anointing. That basically puts you into a whole different system as far as church authority goes. I don't know how it works, but those guys seem to be nearly untouchable.

Reading Juanita Brook's book about John D. Lee, that guy had the 2a and he was ex'ed to get the gov off Brigham's back. He then went on to perform several healing miracles as recorded in his journal and eventually he was convicted and shot dead at the meadows as the famous scapegoat. But I suppose his sins were "the shedding of innocent blood" and that doesn't net full protection under the 2a as far as we know.
We do know the Lee family later petitioned the church to clear his name and his full blessings were restored posthumously.

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:55 am

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:50 am Imagine you're an 18 year old kid who bishop is delaying your mission for masturbating or looking at boobies.

Then you hear about this guy.

How can the church possibly punish horny kids for being horny kids while this guy walks?

The best theory out there is that this Bishop guy got his second anointing. That basically puts you into a whole different system as far as church authority goes. I don't know how it works, but those guys seem to be nearly untouchable.

I have heard about the 2nd anointing as well. I still think they lose all credibility with punishing a normal 18 year old kid though.

If this gets embarrassing enough for the church, do they ignore the 2nd anointing and Ex Bishop? I can see them doing it publicly with a wink-wink/nudge-nudge in private, telling Bishop that the salvation in the 2nd anointing still applies.

Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:43 am

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:31 am

consiglieri wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:59 pm http://www.byustore.com/30-Ways-To-Love ... ion-Bishop

When I click the link there is an error "page not found"

Strange...

COB: "Well.....if you can't find it...maybe it was never there in the first place. Wait, did you see that gaslight just dim and then go back on?"

To be fair, if it was my call, I would immediately yank all his books from the shelves as well.
Scrubbing him off the map entirely... That's a bit more grey area.


Also, they nixed Hamula last year for infidelity.
There is a precedent. If Bishop goes unpunished it would be gross inconsistency. Now is the test of their 'Zero Tolerance' abuse policy.
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... discipline

The Church has zero tolerance for abuse of any kind, including child abuse, spousal abuse, sexual abuse or child pornography, and anyone engaged in these practices would rightly face both criminal prosecution and Church discipline.

If Ryan McKnight's objective was to lob a grenade at the church while handing Sam Young a shotgun, he couldn't have timed it better. I'd be enjoying the show if these munitions hadn't been purchased with actual lives.

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:50 am Imagine you're an 18 year old kid who bishop is delaying your mission for masturbating or looking at boobies.

Then you hear about this guy.

How can the church possibly punish horny kids for being horny kids while this guy walks?

This is the thing that really ticks me off. I managed to never confess anything to my bishop and did not have any ordinance delayed. But I certainly had friends who did, including a couple of young men in my current ward. It is scandals like this that apologists have never reasonably defended.

I was working in the IT department of Wells Fargo two years ago when my CEO was deposed in front of the U.S. Senate, live on CNN, for a painful list of poor practices with customers. The next staff meeting I attended included some very heated accusations about why the internal ethics reporting system failed so spectaularly and systematically. My manager had nothing to do with the scandal but could only weakly say that it was wrong and we can only move past it.

I expect no similar mea culpa from the church about this. I doubt my local leadership knows about this incident and certainly they were not involved. But, at no time do I expect to have any LDS leader at any level take any heat from this scandal. At no time will any apostle openly state that this was wrong and that steps will be taken. This was released just in time for general conference and LDS leadership could address it. But I have no illusions about that occurring.

One of the crazy parts is if you think about his attitude on repentance from when he was a missionary. He repents on his own thinking he clears it all up with God personally. Then as his church career progresses he gets called personally by GA's and given bigger assignments which must validate his worthiness and forgiveness from God. The cycle continues.

What's most furious is any cover up from the church. This guy clearly isn't the first nor the last. The church has an underbelly of abuse that only feeds from the system of patriarchy.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:31 am

consiglieri wrote: ↑Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:59 pm http://www.byustore.com/30-Ways-To-Love ... ion-Bishop

When I click the link there is an error "page not found"

Strange...

OMG!

I am glad I copied and pasted the book cover from that site!

Looks like the BYU Book Store was a tad behind Deseret in getting the memo!

I am so glad the LDS Church is doing SOMETHING to rectify the situation.

oliblish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:47 am He was there when I was in the MTC. He actually ordained me to the Melchizedek Priesthood when I arrived. He said he would send me a line of authority but I never got it. I am going to listen to the whole recording to see exactly who this man was.

He was a Mission President in Argentina when my brother-in-law was there. From what I understand the abuse started back when he was a bishop years before he was mission president. Also a GA was notified but did nothing.

I am listening to the Mormon Stories interview about this on Facebook right now. I think this is going to be a major problem.

Here is a link to the Facebook live interview of Ryan McKnight:

https://www.facebook.com/mormonstories/ ... 199764301/

I may have gotten that wrong in my review of the transcript.

When he says he was in Argentina watching a girl on a swing, I thought he was a missionary there.

But if he was the mission president at the time, that is starting to sound light-years creepier!

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:50 am Imagine you're an 18 year old kid who's bishop is delaying your mission for masturbating or looking at boobies.

Then you hear about this guy.

How can the church possibly punish horny kids for being horny kids while this guy walks?

AMEN,...AMEN.....AMEN.....AMEN......AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OK...time to share some interesting stuff. I know a LOT of people in SL County. I know them from clubs, drinking groups and general networking. I know 2 women who are "massage therapists"...both licensed and legit. But, they have both told me they have to do certain things or else they can't stay in business--its that bad. Neighter of them necessarily feel bad about what they do--because they believe differently morally--but they are frustrated because of the growing problem that forces their profession in a bad way. If you think I'm joking, look at the massive influx of Asian Parlors that are criss-crossing the Wasatch Front. There is a trafficking trade that is off the scale happening here in this valley. I don't know what the SL Police or FBI are doing about it,..that is more than I really care to know. I just am aware of the shift, and its growing.

Anyway, both of these women have told me that some of their most consistent clients are LDS men, some bishops and even stake presidents who regularly ask for 'extras'. They claim they are not getting it at home--and from what I've read out there about that problem, there is some truth to that. Its not justified, it just is.

One man was on the table getting things done, and his phone went off. He picked it up, and on the other side the lady heard: "Hi Bishop! We are just getting things ready for......". She pretended to not hear. He was mortified, and on the way out, the lady tapped him on the shoulder and said: "Thanks for coming...bishop. See you next time." He turned as white as a sheet, dropped his head, and left in a rush. She never heard from him again.

Another 2 people openly share they are who they are with the other therapist lady, and just do what they do. They don't hide what they are doing from her, but they do HIDE IT FROM THEIR WIFE AND THEIR CONGREGATION.

I am 100% certain of the validity of this.

I was friends with a woman years ago who also dated someone in the bishopric who received certain favors during that dating experience. I know of another couple of people as well.....

The list goes on and on and on.

There is a BIG FAT LIE going on all over the place up and down the Wasatch Front with the LDS church. The audacity to punish a child who masturbates, when you have these a$$holes doing the big nasty flagrantly like this, is off the scale to me.

And I'm talking about people in authority at the local level....up to and including STAKE PRESIDENTS!

Is it any surprise that you have people higher up messing around?

This story about the MTC president doesn't shock me in the least. Not one bit. What makes me laugh, however, is the infallible spirit of Discernment exercised by those prophet, seers and impersonators who have such gifts from almighty god.

I can just see it being spun now by the apologists: "The Lord allowed this person to go through the ranks, because only that way could he eventually be found out and be placed in a position to repent." That is almost as ludicrous as Bednar's: "do you have faith to NOT be healed?"

LOL....LMAO!!!!!!

RFM....consiglieri....

Any way you or Bill Reel can get Lavina Fielding Anderson on one of your casts?

She did a BIG Dialogue article on abuse. It might be interesting to hear her again?

My reactions:

1. I find the claims of abuse at this man's hands both shocking and credible.

2. The victim most certainly did NOT help her case with how she handled much of this (i.e. death threat, etc.).

3. This is but another nail in the coffin of the legendary spirit of discernment for me personally.

4. The Church will do absolutely nothing given how shaky the evidence really is. Too easy to chalk up to an angry alleged victim and an elderly man with dementia.

5. I don't want my pre-teen daughter in one-on-one interviews with adults. At all. Ever.

I searched for Bishop's name on DeseretBook.com and LDS.org and he has been utterly and completely erased. If you search for him on Google you'll get a Deseret Book hit, but the link takes you to somebody else's book.

This is 1984 happening right before our eyes, folks. Bishop is a non-person, down the memory hole, at least to the extent that the church is able to disavow any connection or any evidence of his existence. Unfortunately, the church isn't quite as powerful as Big Brother. What will be really interesting now is to see if the church can suppress the story in the local news.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... march-2018

President Newsroom released a statement.

I think this a rather measured response and appropriate. Let's remember these are allegations. It seems the abused woman has an attorney representing her and formal charges are likely. But we can't go around saying Mr Bishop is a molester, etc. without proper evidence. The church can't immediately Ex this guy, it would implicate him and the church.

Let due process runs it's course. Let's remember "Innocent until proven guilty" (even though we have a confession).

I'm not sticking up for the guy, but for the rule of law. This is quickly moving out of the hands of the church and into a court of law. This church would be wise to not interfere. The one true legal team, Yea, even Kirton & McConkie would probably be wise to let this run it's course in the judicial system before becoming involved. Reality is, as soon as Mr Bishop is tried, the church will be next. Based on what the press release says, it seems like they already have a good defence. Mr Bishop deceived the church as well as every else. The church is a victim here as well. /s


EDIT: I'm really not trying to defend Mr Bishop. I am saying that we shouldn't be wielding pitchforks and torches.

What is telling is that this obviously bad man had subsequent powerful spiritual experiences and was an effective church leader.

Conclusion: Strong spiritual experiences has absolutely nothing to do with your righteousness.

Kishkumen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:15 pm https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... march-2018

President Newsroom released a statement.

I think this a rather measured response and appropriate. Let's remember these are allegations. It seems the abused woman has an attorney representing her and formal charges are likely. But we can't go around saying Mr Bishop is a molester, etc. without proper evidence. The church can't immediately Ex this guy, it would implicate him and the church.

Let due process runs it's course. Let's remember "Innocent until proven guilty" (even though we have a confession).

I'm not sticking up for the guy, but for the rule of law. This is quickly moving out of the hands of the church and into a court of law. This church would be wise to not interfere. The one true legal team, Yea, even Kirton & McConkie would probably be wise to let this run it's course in the judicial system before becoming involved. Reality is, as soon as Mr Bishop is tried, the church will be next. Based on what the press release says, it seems like they already have a good defence. Mr Bishop deceived the church as well as every else. The church is a victim here as well. /s


EDIT: I'm really not trying to defend Mr Bishop. I am saying that we shouldn't be wielding pitchforks and torches.

Yep, based on President Newsroom's statement, the church is just going to sit back and watch as far as "Church Discipline" is considered.

They've already stated that they've already "investigated" the allegations, and Mr. Bishop denied.

Again, now they'll just sit back and watch. "This is a local matter" blah, blah blah.

Unless Bishop actually gets convicted, then they will act swiftly, 2a or not...

consiglieri wrote: ↑Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:21 am
I may have gotten that wrong in my review of the transcript.

When he says he was in Argentina watching a girl on a swing, I thought he was a missionary there.

But if he was the mission president at the time, that is starting to sound light-years creepier!

Hmmm.....I was thinking the girl on the swing incident occurred when he was about 6 years of age.

Really wish this woman had had her wits about her a little better. Things mush together way too much when he's trying to describe his problem.