NOM

Binding spirits, great correlation!

Joseph often seemed to follow a pattern in creating names. He had to create many names. So he would add certain prefixes or suffixes to existing words and sometimes change a letter, to create new looking names. So where did Gazelem come from? Think of some common prefixes in the BoM:

Zar-
Ze-
Anti-
Cum-
Gad-
Gid-
Mor-
Ne-

So, he liked Gad- and it makes sense that Ga- is a possible prefix to add. That could explain the Ga in Gazelem. What about the rest? Joesph also liked re-using Bible names, and he often would change one letter.

Zelem could be Salem. Which happens to be a Biblical name for Jerusalem. As well as an occult name due to 17th century witch trials in a certain town in Mass. So Salem would be a special, sacred name to Joseph for sure. And then there was the white stone with a new name written on in in Revelations chapter 2 (see verses 13-17), so it could make sense to use a Biblical name like Salem for the seer stone in the BoM. But it had to be a novel name. So Joseph may have just used one of his naming tricks...

Add the Ga- to Salem, and change the 'sa' to a 'ze' and you get Gazelem. A typical name invention for Joseph. Any similarity to other names would be coincidence. Or maybe Joseph was inspired that day and just sensed this was a good name for a seer stone. You pick.

Lots of more scholarly info here than I have to offer, but I know it will take a lot more than some obscure references or correlations to convince me of anything. The evidence to the contrary is so much more abundant. Hanging onto something this minimal to prove something does not persuade me.

II is my experience in life that coincidence is more common than we would believe. But correlation does not mean causation. The mistake so many make is relating one word, event or action with another, when in reality they have nothing to do with each other.

Haha thanks MoPag & Rob4Hope!

Was doing a little study on this today and found that anciently there was a city in Cappadocia called Gazelum. Was thinking since we know Joseph hijacked a couple of names from old maps i.e. Comoros and Moroni, that possibly he had picked up Gazelum from an old Biblical map. The city was near the Tigris river, one of the four that apparently flowed from or near the Garden of Eden.

Still working on this....

ap1054 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:11 pm Haha thanks MoPag & Rob4Hope!

Hope the comments were well received. Kindof got a little snarky in my post.

In Quinn's book, when I read that there were accounts of Joseph Smith Jr. cutting the throat of a goat and bleeding it in a circle around a dig site, that took it over the top for me. There are too many accounts to discount these--the GUY DID THIS TYPE OF STUFF! There are accounts that JS probably is the one who disturbed the grave site of Alvin his brother because JS needed to retrieve a personal effect to retrieve the plates, or so the pre-changed story tells.

The church has re-written (and continues to) history. Those who worked with Joseph were historical revisionists--changing the history, wording, and everything else to give the illusion of continuity and clarity when anything BUT was the truth. Remember the story of how Joseph Fielding Smith cut the account out of the JS journal and hid it away for decades to "protect" the church?....when in reality he was telling lies? The church doesn't tell that story in clarity, do they?

Anyway, I use to believe everything I heard that would confirm the Book of Mormon. And now, I kind of feel sad, because I disbelieve almost everything I hear about it.

The thing that cinched it for me is the pictures the church hangs in the North Visitors Center in Temple Square. Those pics have Joseph looking at the plates in what appears to be a translation process. It is a pure fabrication. The church still hangs it, but if asked, will respond "Oh, that is just an artists rendition".

It's propaganda. The church engages in propaganda. They know very WELL that a picture teaches most people MORE than written words, particularly when the church just happens to have an "artist rendition" hanging on a wall where the topic in discussion is "translation".

What a bunch of liars!

In my mind, when I hear of some confirmation of the Book of Mormon, I struggle to even consider it because the deck is now stacked against the church. Too many half-truths and flat-out lies have been told me to believe. I was once told that "two wrong's don't make a right". I now also believe that "one truth doesn't cover a multitude of lies". So, in context, let's assume that "gazalem" is a real word, and JS got it absolutely right. Good for him! But that doesn't make up for the other SERIOUS problems in the Book of Mormon.

Thoughts?

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:16 pm

ap1054 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:11 pm Haha thanks MoPag & Rob4Hope!

The thing that cinched it for me is the pictures the church hangs in the North Visitors Center in Temple Square. Those pics have Joseph looking at the plates in what appears to be a translation process. It is a pure fabrication. The church still hangs it, but if asked, will respond "Oh, that is just an artists rendition".

Let's test them by asking them to cut off an arm or some other important member of the.......wait, that's not where I was going with this.

Let's test them by asking one of the excellent artists I know to paint a very fine picture of Joseph "translating" with his head in his hat and no gold plates on the table. We can present it to them saying, "This is historically accurate, not just an artist's rendition. Wouldn't you prefer this since it's more truthful and we know how you love the truth?

I think I know how they would react...

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:56 pm Was doing a little study on this today and found that anciently there was a city in Cappadocia called Gazelum. Was thinking since we know Joseph hijacked a couple of names from old maps i.e. Comoros and Moroni, that possibly he had picked up Gazelum from an old Biblical map. The city was near the Tigris river, one of the four that apparently flowed from or near the Garden of Eden.

Still working on this....

This city is specifically mentioned in Le Grand Dictionnaire Geographique https://archive.org/details/legranddictionna03bruz which was published in the 1726 and revised in 1768. It was a compilation of work done by "the journeys of scientists and explorers" It included descriptions of places where healing springs and fountains could be found. It also includes mythical literature of Atlantis, Thule and Lestrygons. Original is in French, some material may have been used in map making or mythical literature.

Its also specifically mentioned in the 6th book of Nature by Plinius, which was translated to English in 1603. http://catalog.lambertvillelibrary.org/ ... liny6.html This one seems far more likely to be the source IMHO. Its a book all about the nature of Gods creations that would lead to a knowledge of God himself. It seems like a mix of magic, Christianity and Greek philosophy. Even some of the language is Book of Mormonesque

yea and taken from it a great part thereof, with exceeding rage overflowing the same, and laying all emptie and naked: it sufficed not, I say, to have broken through the mountaines, and so to rush in, and after the sea had dismembred

It also speaks of "intelligences" , gold, "Nepheonites", "Sydon", "the river sydenum"

Another fun quote from the 6th book of nature:

Others say, that the Suites,41 Auchetes, Satarnei, and Asampates, invaded and conquered these parts; and that the Tanaites and Nepheonites, were by them put to the edge of the sword, and not one person of them spared.

Does that sound familiar to anybody but me?

Ran out of time, wish I could do more research and find out if the book was available, or if there are other similarities...

However, either 1. Joseph Smith pulled from this book and could easily have gotten Gazelem from it, or 2. All this other stuff is just a coincidence and a more compelling one in my mind than the one cited in the OP.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:54 pm

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:56 pm Was doing a little study on this today and found that anciently there was a city in Cappadocia called Gazelum. Was thinking since we know Joseph hijacked a couple of names from old maps i.e. Comoros and Moroni, that possibly he had picked up Gazelum from an old Biblical map. The city was near the Tigris river, one of the four that apparently flowed from or near the Garden of Eden.

Still working on this....

This city is specifically mentioned in Le Grand Dictionnaire Geographique https://archive.org/details/legranddictionna03bruz which was published in the 1726 and revised in 1768. It was a compilation of work done by "the journeys of scientists and explorers" It included descriptions of places where healing springs and fountains could be found. It also includes mythical literature of Atlantis, Thule and Lestrygons. Original is in French, some material may have been used in map making or mythical literature.

Its also specifically mentioned in the 6th book of Nature by Plinius, which was translated to English in 1603. http://catalog.lambertvillelibrary.org/ ... liny6.html This one seems far more likely to be the source IMHO. Its a book all about the nature of Gods creations that would lead to a knowledge of God himself. It seems like a mix of magic, Christianity and Greek philosophy. Even some of the language is Book of Mormonesque

yea and taken from it a great part thereof, with exceeding rage overflowing the same, and laying all emptie and naked: it sufficed not, I say, to have broken through the mountaines, and so to rush in, and after the sea had dismembred

It also speaks of "intelligences" , gold, "Nepheonites", "Sydon", "the river sydenum"

Another fun quote from the 6th book of nature:

Others say, that the Suites,41 Auchetes, Satarnei, and Asampates, invaded and conquered these parts; and that the Tanaites and Nepheonites, were by them put to the edge of the sword, and not one person of them spared.

Does that sound familiar to anybody but me?

Ran out of time wish I could do more research and find out if the book was available, or if there are other similarities...

However, either 1. Joseph Smith pulled from this book and could easily have gotten Gazelem from it, or 2. All this other stuff is just a coincidence and a more compelling one in my mind than the one cited in the OP.

Wow Slavereeno! You knocked that one out of the park!

I'm getting so old I had kind of forgotten about this and was on to other things. Wouldn't it be enlightening to know what books were available to Joseph in his local library? We know he did possess a library card. From what you have shown us it wouldn't surprise me to find either the book sited or some derivitive authored by someone else. They did alot of that back then.

Wonder if Gazelem was to be found in the Greater or Lesser Keys Grimoire?

It would be a hoot if it was listed right after the "eye of newt".

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:16 pm In my mind, when I hear of some confirmation of the Book of Mormon, I struggle to even consider it because the deck is now stacked against the church. Too many half-truths and flat-out lies have been told me to believe.

Thoughts?

My thoughts exactly!

Also, great stuff slavereeno!

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:54 pm

Palerider wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:56 pm Was doing a little study on this today and found that anciently there was a city in Cappadocia called Gazelum. Was thinking since we know Joseph hijacked a couple of names from old maps i.e. Comoros and Moroni, that possibly he had picked up Gazelum from an old Biblical map. The city was near the Tigris river, one of the four that apparently flowed from or near the Garden of Eden.

Still working on this....

Another fun quote from the 6th book of nature:

Others say, that the Suites,41 Auchetes, Satarnei, and Asampates, invaded and conquered these parts; and that the Tanaites and Nepheonites, were by them put to the edge of the sword, and not one person of them spared.

Does that sound familiar to anybody but me?

Ran out of time, wish I could do more research and find out if the book was available, or if there are other similarities...

However, either 1. Joseph Smith pulled from this book and could easily have gotten Gazelem from it, or 2. All this other stuff is just a coincidence and a more compelling one in my mind than the one cited in the OP.

Wow. Good finds Palerider and slavereeno. Impressive what is brought forth out of obscurity and revelaed on NOM...

Thanks, I may read more of that when I get done with Hagoths annotated essays.

I guess I get a little frustrated that a friggen footnote in an obscure book of the apocrypha is not seen as a coincidence. But an actual reference accompanied by several other links like calling people "intelligences", treasures and gold, Sydon, and a group of people called the Nepheonites that are wiped out with the edge of the sword by other inhabitants of their land are dismissed as coincidence.

Either they are both coincidences, and the word connection in footnote in the book of peter is moot. Or they are not and the Sixth book of nature wins by comparison, pick one. This cherry-picking, and selective application of judgement crap is ridiculous.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:53 pmBut an actual reference accompanied by several other links like calling people "intelligences", treasures and gold, Sydon, and a group of people called the Nepheonites that are wiped out with the edge of the sword by other inhabitants of their land are dismissed as coincidence

Right. I will gladly surrender the city of Moroni in the Comoros Islands to pure coincidence if the apologists will do the same for NHM carved on a rock in Arabia. Unfortunately, that would be a massive blow to their case because it's the best physical evidence they have.