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Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:09 pm
by Hagoth
Corsair wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:10 amI visited Tikal in Guatemala. It was a fascinating trip and I would recommend it to anyone with an interest in archaeology. Claiming that there was some kind of ancient Mormon influence on the area is really not possible. Any hints of the LDS gospel will be only what you bring in yourself.
I loved Tikal. My former bishop's family also visited but they went on a Book of Mormon tour. BP's wife told me that she stood on the very spot where King Benjamin gave his speech. I wonder why my guide didn't mention that? If I want to take a Book of Mormon tour I think I'll save some money and do the Heartland tour. It's just as relevant.

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:15 pm
by Hagoth
BriansThoughtMirror wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:52 am Here's another articel about the recent Mayan discoveries with more info:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... 9945b2d9fe

Looks like there is a lot we don't know. Surprise!
To be honest, the media is overhyping this a bit. This site is the aforementioned Tikal, which is the biggest tourist attraction in Guatemala. Mayanists knew there was a lot of stuff out there, but it was hard to quantify without a lot of slashing and digging. The use of LIDAR greatly accelerated the process to provide a better picture of the extent of the ruins.

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:20 pm
by Hagoth
wtfluff wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:03 am"Sheep herding" means playing whatever-it-is-they-played on a Mesoamerican ball court, and hacking dude's arms off.
Actually, my stake president clarified for me that they were really herding Turkeys. Maybe it was the mesoamerican version of the Puppy Bowl. Imagine what everyone thought when this Mormon Missionary guy burst onto the Turkey Bowl playing field and started hacking off all the handlers' arms.

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:20 pm
by alas
Hagoth wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:09 pm
Corsair wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:10 amI visited Tikal in Guatemala. It was a fascinating trip and I would recommend it to anyone with an interest in archaeology. Claiming that there was some kind of ancient Mormon influence on the area is really not possible. Any hints of the LDS gospel will be only what you bring in yourself.
I loved Tikal. My former bishop's family also visited but they went on a Book of Mormon tour. BP's wife told me that she stood on the very spot where King Benjamin gave his speech. I wonder why my guide didn't mention that? If I want to take a Book of Mormon tour I think I'll save some money and do the Heartland tour. It's just as relevant.
One of our tour guides one time we were in the Chitzenitsa area said that the tour guides from the Mormon church were making things up, you could tell because three different areas claim King Benjamon spoke there. (Only he said it Ben-ha-mon, just like it would be in Spanish.) He had no clue that his tour was a family of Mormon Grandma, Grandpa, kids and grandkids. My TBM son and his wife both who majored in MesoAmerican studies both agreed with him. Having studied the history of the area, they knew there was zero evidence of BoM stuff. My son sorta believe the limited geographic theory of North America----only because he has not studied the archelolgy of that area as well as he did MesoAmerica.

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:45 pm
by wtfluff
Hagoth wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:20 pm
wtfluff wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:03 am"Sheep herding" means playing whatever-it-is-they-played on a Mesoamerican ball court, and hacking dude's arms off.
Actually, my stake president clarified for me that they were really herding Turkeys. Maybe it was the mesoamerican version of the Puppy Bowl. Imagine what everyone thought when this Mormon Missionary guy burst onto the Turkey Bowl playing field and started hacking off all the handlers' arms.
Well, you have to admit it would take quite a bit of talent to get turkeys to "fly" through that ring on the Turkey-Bowl playing field. (I'm still giggling thinking about this... Long after reading it, and throughout typing this reply.)

Maybe that's why I'm no longer a believer. I just don't have the imagination to lay awake at night and make sh!t like this up to keep my shelf intact... :?:

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:40 pm
by RubinHighlander
Not Buying It wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:43 am Wow, there were forts - the Book of Mormon must be true! Because no one besides Book of Mormon people ever had forts or warfare.

Let's talk about what they didn't find - tens of thousands of steel swords used in the final annihilation of an entire nation and all of its men, women, and children. Or horses. Or chariots. Or even wheels. Or...

...why bother? Believing members got a little boost for their faith, and that's all they want really, they don't care whether or not it is strong, convincing evidence for the Book of Mormon - they just care it could be construed as evidence. That's good enough for most of them.
So I definitely know TBMs are buzzing about this. Just today at lunch a good TBM friend of mine mentioned this article and how they found elevated highways, motes and fortifications. Then he said something that really made me cringe:

"But then we already knew this about these cities because the Book of Mormon talks about it."

Oh man, I really exercised a great deal of self control, holding back all the things I wanted to say that were exactly along the lines of what Not Buying It said above. Later I just felt sad for my TBM friend and all the others that are so desperate for anything they can grab onto and use for their hope and faith in the literal-ism of the BOM; it really is a sad state of mind to be in. I know, I was there for a very long time.

The FAIR response to the problems between the Mayan and BOM time line is pretty embarrassing. It's always frustrating and impressive to me how they throw down a bullet list that does not directly address the real issue or question. I think their favorite defensive statement is "this is an oversimplification of the facts".

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book ... _and_Olmec

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:21 am
by notforprophet
BriansThoughtMirror wrote: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:21 am Wow, this is really cool! I can't believe what they can do now!
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:35 pm The argument won't be that this is THE book of mormon people, it will merely give them ammunition to say "see there's hidden stuff that we didn't find before!!" and "ramparts and fortresses".
To me, this is actually a fair argument. There COULD be more that we don't know, and it could totally change our understanding of the ancient past. It's happened before. It will probably happen again. I don't think we've found very good evidence for the BOM at this point, and I don't ever expect to, but an intelligent person could reason that we just haven't found the right sites yet. It's not like we know exactly everything that went on in ancient America during the specified time, and we're learning new things all the time. There's a lot of jungle out there, and it's obviously hiding things! But, like I said, I don't expect anyone to dig up Zarahemla any time soon. But I also won't call anyone stupid because they keep hoping and digging. In any case, I am no expert on ancient American history, so I'd feel like a hack trying to argue about it. I know enough to convince myself, and probably not anyone else!
I agree with this. It would be obstinate of an exmormon whose "testimony" finds a strong base in the lack of archaeological evidence for the BoM to completely ignore this.

However, I don't think that this find is actually very significant. Throughout central/south american archaeology there have been MANY finds that point to various civilizations. These finds tell us what kinds of tools, weapons, transportation, and lives they had. When a group of people live somewhere they always leave a long-lasting footprint. Italy is still littered with evidence of the Roman Empire (so we know that the Nephite occupation of the Americas is not too far in the past for evidence to survive).

About 1000 years ago a small group of Norse colonists arrived in Newfoundland (the eastern tip of Canada)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows). Their stay is estimated to have lasted less than 100 years, but there is a plethora of evidence in that area of their stay there. So it does not take long to leave a lasting footprint. The Nephites, supposedly, died off only a "short" amount of time before those Norse colonists arrived (1000 and 1600 years are on the same order of magnitude) and they had 1000 years to leave their footprint.

The fact that we've found a "new" Mayan city suggests (strongly) that there is even more to be found. But the chances of there being an additional, previously undiscovered, civilization are very low. Combine this with other evidence that the BoM is not what it claims to be (anything listed in the first few pages of the CES letter), and it's of little concern.

(God damn I like parentheses. Someone help me.)

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm
by FiveFingerMnemonic
Brother Jake's timely new video on this topic:

https://youtu.be/VL8pYyJmWbk

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:33 pm
by moksha
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:57 pm Brother Jake's timely new video on this topic:

https://youtu.be/VL8pYyJmWbk
Wish the Salt Lake radio stations would give some air time to Brother Jake's song, The Incredible Vanishing Nephite Lands.

Re: Mesoamerica discovery

Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:16 am
by Hagoth
I suppose this could be hopeful for BoM believers if they had actually found a new civilization in Guatemala, but they didn't. They just got some clarification of the extents of an already known Maya center. The conclusion we should draw from this is not that there must be other, entirely unknown civilizations hidden in the rain forest, but that there might be more Mayan ruins still to be discovered. That does not rule out the possibility that there were other civilizations there, but neither does it support it. The fact that some Laplanders have used reindeer to pull sleighs does not lend credence to the Santa Clause story. Someone who believes in ancient aliens could just as easily claim that this discovery supports their belief that there are undiscovered alien bases hidden in the jungle. Maybe there is some remote possibility of that, but understanding more about the size and makeup of Tikal does not weigh in on the matter one way or the other.