NOM

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:52 pm DUDE! You changed your avatar!.....GAWD..its creepy now!
LOL

LOL! Yeah, Rubin is a creepy hippy dude! Did you ever see the movie?

There is nothing that can possibly be discovered abut Joseph Smith that cannot be rationalized by an ad hoc theory that will satisfy those members who are desperate to believe in him at all costs. There will never be a smoking gun - we already have it and most members keep believing anyway.

Doesn’t matter what comes out - if someone found a Solomon Spaulding manuscript that was the Book of Mormon word for freaking word, it wouldn’t matter. If Joseph’s genetic material was found on Helen Mar Kimball’s blue dress, it wouldn’t matter. If someone ever found a personal diary where he snickered about how gullible his followers were when he made crap up, it wouldn’t matter.

Just accept it. If what we already know about Joseph Smith won’t persuade most members to see him for the fraud he was, nothing ever will. This discovery about the JST doesn’t surprise me, but I also know it’s impact on members’ belief in Joseph Smith will be negligible.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 pm There is nothing that can possibly be discovered abut Joseph Smith that cannot be rationalized by an ad hoc theory that will satisfy those members who are desperate to believe in him at all costs. There will never be a smoking gun - we already have it and most members keep believing anyway.

Doesn’t matter what comes out - if someone found a Solomon Spaulding manuscript that was the Book of Mormon word for freaking word, it wouldn’t matter. If Joseph’s genetic material was found on Helen Mar Kimball’s blue dress, it wouldn’t matter. If someone ever found a personal diary where he snickered about how gullible his followers were when he made crap up, it wouldn’t matter.

Just accept it. If what we already know about Joseph Smith won’t persuade most members to see him for the fraud he was, nothing ever will. This discovery about the JST doesn’t surprise me, but I also know it’s impact on members’ belief in Joseph Smith will be negligible.

There are a lot of papers on the psychology of belief. When I was undergoing my own therapy, the emphasis was on always seeing for oneself the manner in which one determined the veracity of something - in a sense always examining one's own epistemological methods. The more one does this, the more it builds the kinds of neural pathways that permit rational thinking as a default. That is not to say constant self reflection about it isn't necessary.

I'm not exactly disagreeing here; it's true that most believers of something they cherish and want to hold onto are likely to incorrectly rationalize facts to support their position. Nonetheless I believe it is possible to counter the belief in the irrational by working on helping others to develop their ability to reason correctly. Which is, of course, never going to be 100% for any person. Everyone makes at least some errors in judgment, but the science of psychology gives me hope that most people (barring the exceptions with defects in their brain development or neurological damage) can filter out the majority of error.

All that said... I wonder if you aren't effectively correct about the inability of others to make the kinds of necessary steps that will clear their minds. I am, after all, speaking from the perspective of someone who had the benefit of a $25,000 intense cognitive-behavioral therapy program. That isn't going to be the case for most. But if psychosis can be dealt with, I have to believe that magical thinking can be eliminated as well.

I guess I ultimately want to have hope in the miracles of science and the triumph of the rational, but maybe I'm just rationalizing facts to support my belief.

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:21 pm

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:22 pm Brother Jake on translation vs "translation":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t_iuV2vIXlI

Two things I love about Brother Jake: he's very thorough, and he helps you laugh instead of grind your teeth into powder.

I have never seen brother jake. That was funny!

Brother Jake deserves a raise! And I think his videos would be very helpful in explaining the issues to gospel doctrine classes with short attention spans. When will they come out on CD?

A Recently Recovered Source: Rethinking Joseph Smith’s Bible Translation
MARCH 16, 2017 BY ADMIN

Wonder if there is any chance they will fire this ADMIN at BYU?

I imagine this was written by an actual person or persons at BYU, but was altered enough by this so-called "ADMIN" that it was the only name worth listing.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 pmJust accept it. If what we already know about Joseph Smith won’t persuade most members to see him for the fraud he was, nothing ever will. This discovery about the JST doesn’t surprise me, but I also know it’s impact on members’ belief in Joseph Smith will be negligible.

I seem to be coming to this conclusion as well.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 pm Just accept it. If what we already know about Joseph Smith won’t persuade most members to see him for the fraud he was, nothing ever will. This discovery about the JST doesn’t surprise me, but I also know it’s impact on members’ belief in Joseph Smith will be negligible.

I do agree with you, but I'm still waiting for what FairMormon states about this finding. Surely they wil have something to say on this issue. The common claim about an issue is that "this is nothing new." If it is new they tend to say, "it's not important." And if it's important, then they will say, "It does not matter." Once it does matter they will return to "it's nothing new."

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:44 amI do agree with you, but I'm still waiting for what FairMormon states about this finding.

It should be good for a laugh.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 pm There is nothing that can possibly be discovered abut Joseph Smith that cannot be rationalized by an ad hoc theory that will satisfy those members who are desperate to believe in him at all costs. There will never be a smoking gun - we already have it and most members keep believing anyway.

Doesn’t matter what comes out - if someone found a Solomon Spaulding manuscript that was the Book of Mormon word for freaking word, it wouldn’t matter. If Joseph’s genetic material was found on Helen Mar Kimball’s blue dress, it wouldn’t matter. If someone ever found a personal diary where he snickered about how gullible his followers were when he made crap up, it wouldn’t matter.

Just accept it. If what we already know about Joseph Smith won’t persuade most members to see him for the fraud he was, nothing ever will. This discovery about the JST doesn’t surprise me, but I also know it’s impact on members’ belief in Joseph Smith will be negligible.

While I understand your frustration, I'm a little more optimistic than you. Yes, many will believe and justify at all possible costs, but many will also see things for what they are and leave. There is an exodus right now, even if it is slow, but we're all part of it along with others at other forums, so it must be real. I prophesy that as this next "technology native" generation comes of age, we'll see an accelerated bottom up departure especially since we older generations are quickly becoming used to individuals leaving the fold and still living normal healthy lives. That will just make it easier for our kids to leave as they won't be worried about shattering the Celestial dream knowing that others prepared the way for them.

PLUS: You never know who is listening and quietly suffering through their own cog dis. We have no idea who those folks are, and can really be helpful to them by providing logical touch points.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 pmJust accept it. If what we already know about Joseph Smith won’t persuade most members to see him for the fraud he was, nothing ever will. This discovery about the JST doesn’t surprise me, but I also know it’s impact on members’ belief in Joseph Smith will be negligible.

I honestly don't believe that the vast majority of True Believing members will every know anything about this. The thickness of the bubble they live in is quite amazing.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:48 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:44 amI do agree with you, but I'm still waiting for what FairMormon states about this finding.

It should be good for a laugh.

Let me take a shot at the spin they will put on it: "Joseph used inspiration to determine which portions of the Bible commentary were correct. God had prepared the original author as an inspired tool to help organize information in a way that would be more accessible to the mind of an uneducated farm boy, just as He had inspired Joseph's treasure digging activities as a training ground for the young prophet's nascent prophetic gifts."

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm Let me take a shot at the spin they will put on it: "Joseph used inspiration to determine which portions of the Bible commentary were correct. God had prepared the original author as an inspired tool to help organize information in a way that would be more accessible to the mind of an uneducated farm boy, just as He had inspired Joseph's treasure digging activities as a training ground for the young prophet's nascent prophetic gifts."

That's perfect!

You should forward this on to FAIR, they could create their "inspired" article based on what you wrote there...

slavereeno wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:23 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm Let me take a shot at the spin they will put on it: "Joseph used inspiration to determine which portions of the Bible commentary were correct. God had prepared the original author as an inspired tool to help organize information in a way that would be more accessible to the mind of an uneducated farm boy, just as He had inspired Joseph's treasure digging activities as a training ground for the young prophet's nascent prophetic gifts."

That's perfect!

You should forward this on to FAIR, they could create their "inspired" article base on what you wrote there...

Dan Peterson probably already plagiarized it.