NOM

It could also be the case the Uchtdorf was benched because he didn't properly ingratiate himself with Nelson while Monson was unable to function. If Uchtdorf set himself up as a competing power to Nelson, then it's no wonder that he was benched as soon as Nelson took over.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:24 amWhat evidence do we have he was ever going to be a progressive force in the Church?

In the church's most official meeting he has said things that have caused me, a hardened apostate, to say - "damn, can't believe he got that through the censors". In a good way. Of course, he also said Doubt your doubts, one of the stupidest things that has ever been put to one of those wood decoration thing-ies.

I still say he was demoted due to jealousy. There are HUGE egos at the top of this Church who don't like being upstaged by a German-accented good-looking charismatic upstart. "Progressiveness" had nothing to do with it.

A valid theory. I'd love a scoop on how these guys interact and actually feel about one another. Based on my mormon experience I'm assuming it's alot of passive aggression and insistence on seniority and authority.

I wonder how Hinckley would feel about all this since he seemed to be a real champion of Utchdorf...

LaMachina wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 am
I wonder how Hinckley would feel about all this since he seemed to be a real champion of Utchdorf...

Ohhh! that might also have something to do with it as well. I mean TSM really liked him too. So it might not have been just jealously from Uchtdorf's popularity with the members. If the rest of the 12 had to watch Hinckley and TSM fawn over their golden boy Uchtdorf...they probably all secretly hate him. Poor Dieter. Maybe he'll turn NOM and get an NOM account now.

I prefer Uchtdorf to Oaks, the announcement felt a little like when Gordon Hayward left the Utah Jazz for the Boston Celtics; not unexpected but still a punch in the gut.

While Uchtdorf may not actually have led the church to a more progressive place, I sure liked most of his talks more than the other guys. Preaching against manipulation and the doom and gloom stuff? I'll take it.

Maybe Uchtdorf will be offended by his demotion and become an apostate.

MoPag wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:14 am

LaMachina wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 am
I wonder how Hinckley would feel about all this since he seemed to be a real champion of Utchdorf...

Ohhh! that might also have something to do with it as well. I mean TSM really liked him too. So it might not have been just jealously from Uchtdorf's popularity with the members. If the rest of the 12 had to watch Hinckley and TSM fawn over their golden boy Uchtdorf...they probably all secretly hate him. Poor Dieter. Maybe he'll turn NOM and get an NOM account now.

He was the perfect pick for Hinckley because he looked good in front of the camera and had an amazing backstory. This guy was an aviator and WWII refugee, had a charming accent and a good sense of humor. For a media savvy prophet, Uchtdorf must have seemed as if he was created in a lab. He was the perfect pick for Monson because of his own personal ties to Germany and his frequent talk about bringing the temple there prior to the Berlin wall coming down.

Nelson and Oaks don't have any vision or patience for that sort of nonsense.

MoPag wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:14 am

LaMachina wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:47 am
I wonder how Hinckley would feel about all this since he seemed to be a real champion of Utchdorf...

Ohhh! that might also have something to do with it as well. I mean TSM really liked him too. So it might not have been just jealously from Uchtdorf's popularity with the members. If the rest of the 12 had to watch Hinckley and TSM fawn over their golden boy Uchtdorf...they probably all secretly hate him. Poor Dieter. Maybe he'll turn NOM and get an NOM account now.

I wrongly thought it was Hinckley who called him to the FP...you're right, TSM must've also been a fan to promote him! Or they were just more PR savvy (as you say Oliver). It makes me chuckle to think these old men might've been green with jealousy over the European outsider.

I was not very surprised that Uchtdorf was not called to the 1P. I was surprised that Oaks was made first counselor. in the recent past, there was a younger member of the 1P to deal with the more active roles required. This may be the oldest 1P the church has ever had. Kimball with Tanner and Romney was also an elderly 1P, I guess. They ended up needing to call a third counselor to deal with the load.

All Hail the Gerontocracy!

I can't say that I know Oaks personally, but the public persona that he emits is sickening and repulsive.

As has been said on other DAMU sites: if you have LGBT relatives, friends, etc. who are trying to make the church work, encourage them to get as far away from LDS-Inc. as they can. If you can't get them away, do everything possible to keep them from getting damaged. Based on these guy's track record, the hate and bigotry that's gonna get spewed from the pulpit is only going to get turned up to 11.

We'll probably be doing this again in ~3 years or so when mormon god decides to kill off Nelson to promote Oaks, but with Oaks completely in charge, I don't see things getting better.

But... On the brighter side, I mentioned the other day how crazy Benson was before he became CEO, and the craziness definitely got stepped down when he was in the biggest red chair. Maybe the same will happen with Nelson and Oaks. Here's to hoping!

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:06 pm All Hail the Gerontocracy!

I can't say that I know Oaks personally, but the public persona that he emits is sickening and repulsive.

When I was in high school, Dallin Oaks was my neighbor (therefore in my ward). I knew his children and wife too. It was in Provo when he was at BYU.

I never liked him and he always gave me the creeps. His kids would invite me over to their house at times, but I hated it when he was home. He was not friendly, grumpy and just not warm at all (whenever I was there). Then I'd see him in public and he'd become "Mr. Personality". I always felt he was a fake and a phony. When he was called to be an Apostle, I was pretty amazed and disappointed.

Sad, but not a bit surprised. I don't have words bad enough to say what I think of Oaks.

I am not sure I would say that Uchdorf was demoted out of jealousy. More likely that "God's love is not unconditional" Oaks and "God's love is not unconditional" Nelson have a major philosophical disagreement with "God's love in unconditional" Uchdorf. I don't remember Uchdorf using the "unconditional" word, but the way he describes God's love is that there is nothing that could ever make God stop loving us. The other two have given talks insisting that God's love for us is conditional on our obedience. I don't think Oaks or Nelson know what "love" is, because they are both incapable of it. All they know is approval and that obviously needs to be earned.

And, it is going to get worse for gays. I am so glad my daughter and daughter in law are out of the church. My daughter in law's parents have tried to follow Oaks advice on how to treat gay children who try to introduce you to their new spouse, to the letter. I mean, she went five or so years forbidden to even see her younger brothers and sisters because her parents agreed with Darth Oaks that gay is contagious. My daughter is most certainly NOT welcome in their home, and my DIL has been told she is not allowed to go to her grandmother's funeral because her parents refuse to explain the fact that she is legally married to a gasp woman. The other day my DIL had one of those "five years ago" thinggies on Facebook, and she was saying how great her "outlaws" are (we had a family joke that because they could not get legally married back then, she could not be our daughter *in* law, but she was still our daughter's partner, so that made her our daughter outlaw. She loved it) and how much she appreciated being part of our family, not that her own family wasn't great, just that she missed her siblings so much.

I am sorry, but someone who recommends treating your own child that way just has no clue what love even is. I would feel sorry for him for not ever having experienced real love if he was not such an a**hat.

And Hinkley was very aware of public relations and image and Uchdorf was good at that, and he was close personal friends with Monsen going way back, so I understand him being in those presidencies. But I cannot see him getting along well with Nelson AT. ALL. And Nelson does not know public relations well enough to even be aware of his own popularity compared to Uchdorf. To be jealous of something you have to comprehend it and Nelson doesn't. Nelson measures his personal worth on competency, not popularity. Doctors do not need popularity, but they need competence and I am sure that Nelson was a very competent Doctor. But being a good leader, a good minister, has nothing to do with technical competency, but emotional intelligence, and that is not his strong suit. Being a good minister is a vastly different kind of heart surgery.

AllieOop wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:56 am You're right (I just looked it up). Here's what I found:

- President Romney wasn't retained 30 years ago but that was due to ill health.

- But not since President Brown nearly 40 years ago has something similar to what just happened to Elder Uchtdorf occurred,

- I seem to recall a story about when Hugh B Brown was demoted, it was said, he was so demoted because he was opposed to the priesthood ban and President Lee couldn't disagree with him more.

Can you share a link for this info? Thanks!

Pretty sure this should be the nail in the coffin on the argument over if there is room for the non-orthodox in the Church.

Nooooooooooooo! I actually watched the Uchtdorf's address yesterday and it was lovely. Nelson and Oaks, the two spiritual polygamists!

Also, what was with the address from the Salt Lake Temple Annex before the press conference? How much more did they want to stamp their divine appointment? God chose us, look we are in his sacred temple...well kinda, just the annex, but we have the temple the in the background, so same same.

no1saint wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:42 pm Also, what was with the address from the Salt Lake Temple Annex before the press conference? How much more did they want to stamp their divine appointment? God chose us, look we are in his sacred temple...well kinda, just the annex, but we have the temple the in the background, so same same.

Yes it was.

Interesting that they kicked everyone out of the temple waiting room to do this. It's not like they don't own another building somewhere...

I think Uchtdorf's popularity could have had something to do with being released from the FP. President Nelson wants to be the kind, fatherly figure, and he couldn't compete with Uchtdorf. Dallin Oaks can do the "calls to repentance" much better than anyone else too. This does look like a retrenchment. But..... I could be wrong.

BriansThoughtMirror wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:59 pm

AllieOop wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:56 am You're right (I just looked it up). Here's what I found:

- President Romney wasn't retained 30 years ago but that was due to ill health.

- But not since President Brown nearly 40 years ago has something similar to what just happened to Elder Uchtdorf occurred,

- I seem to recall a story about when Hugh B Brown was demoted, it was said, he was so demoted because he was opposed to the priesthood ban and President Lee couldn't disagree with him more.

Can you share a link for this info? Thanks!

Wouldn't surprise me.

Did anyone hear all of Eyring’s comments? I missed most but heard miracle of amazing growth and almost choked. Also, he almost-cried every time he spoke

I was so happy to see Uchtdork release back into the Q12 and the grand master of homophobia added in his place. The church seems to want to go full throttle against gays and Uchtdorf would have just gotten in the way. Maybe he will be given special assignments to speak at women conferences to help keep the women involved and active? Maybe he will work more with millennials?

2bizE wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:33 pm I was so happy to see Uchtdork release back into the Q12 and the grand master of homophobia added in his place. The church seems to want to go full throttle against gays and Uchtdorf would have just gotten in the way. Maybe he will be given special assignments to speak at women conferences to help keep the women involved and active? Maybe he will work more with millennials?

Maybe he'll be further demoted and be called as the General Relief Society President!