NOM

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:58 am

2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 pmDid you see Holland try to explain away the fabrication of the book of Abraham?

I'm not sure what you're referring to, 2bizE. Can you provide a link?

I'm gonna take a wild stab here and say: The BBC documentary.

Here's another way to look at it.

For people like us the major question is about whether or not it's true. I seriously think that question is much farther down on the Q15's list. They have an organization to run and millions of people looking to them for guidance and inspiration. I think they're far more concerned about just keeping the machine running, keeping all of those people involved and engaged, and trying NOT to be the guy who screws it up, than they are about whether the narrative is true and the magical powers are real.

Even if some of them have come to the realization that it's all voodoo they are very heavily incentivized to maintain a not-on-my-watch attitude and just get to the end of their life without disappointing all of the people who hold them in such high esteem.

I'm curious how many people we all know who have a pretty good grasp of mormon history and still believe? I know several. Yes, there are a lot of people who discover this stuff and are done with the church. It's not everyone though.

Belief can be reframed, can become nuanced, can evolve while people still cling to their faith. I think we've seen that with some of the Q15. I'm still really surprised all these years later that Dieter stood up in conference and admitted church history is not all rainbows and candy canes. I'm still surprised that Terryl Givens and all his (for me personally) hokey attempts to nuance people back to belief has been given some sort of official sanction. We may view it as dishonesty, they may view it as deeper understanding.

Barring some mind-reading, spiritual discernment, psychic level lie detector that I currently do not possess, I see no evidence that these guys do not believe.

LaMachina wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:57 amYes, there are a lot of people who discover this stuff and are done with the church. It's not everyone though.

This.

Kinda wigs me out. But take Bushman for example. I have a friend that has read all of the Joseph Smith papers books, along with other church history books. He still hasn't read anything that you can't buy at Deseret. His proclaimed beliefs are a patchwork quilt, but he maintains a strong belief in JS as a prophet and this church being the One true restored church of Jesus Christ. He is happy to admit they do stupid things and that they aren't getting much revelation anymore, he doesn't really put much stock in the endowment these days; but the rest of it is really true. Its an interesting nuance. That being said, as far as TBMs go he is a lot easier to talk to. In fact he is the only TBM aside from DW that I have fully disclosed to.

So... do they believe it all? I have a refining question: Explicitly or implicitly?

Explicitly, or at the level of conscious thought, I think they do. I'll bet most are at 1. Some might be at 5 or so.

Implicitly... I don't know. I'd love to run some experiments on them. Have them do some cognitively demanding tasks while word pairs like "Joseph" and "true" are flashed, and then again while word pairs like "Joseph" and "false" are flashed. Measure how long the tasks take with different word pairs. If the tasks takes longer to do with pairs like "Joseph/true" than with pairs like "Joseph/false," that could indicate implicit disbelief.

Studies suggest that aggression toward out-groups and intolerance of internal criticism are often driven by strong group identification and grandiose but unstable group image. (It goes by the delightful name "collective narcissism.") Dissonance between explicit and implicit belief about the group can cause that. Other things can, too, which is why I want the Q15 as my guinea pigs.

Something else to consider. Even if one of them lost his testimony entirely they are supremely aware of how unsympathetically and mercilessly their colleagues and the membership treats dissenters. Who would want to open that can of worms? Given the potential consequences it's probably much easier to just keep convincing yourself that you believe.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:45 am Here's another way to look at it.

For people like us the major question is about whether or not it's true. I seriously think that question is much farther down on the Q15's list. They have an organization to run and millions of people looking to them for guidance and inspiration. I think they're far more concerned about just keeping the machine running, keeping all of those people involved and engaged, and trying NOT to be the guy who screws it up, than they are about whether the narrative is true and the magical powers are real.

Even if some of them have come to the realization that it's all voodoo they are very heavily incentivized to maintain a not-on-my-watch attitude and just get to the end of their life without disappointing all of the people who hold them in such high esteem.

This makes sense to me. I think truth is not a big issue for them.

This do they believe it to be true or do they believe it to be nonsense took on a new wrinkle when the Brethren selected Quentin Cook to be one of the apostles - at least when you consider Elder Cook's legal dealings in regard to the machinations of the Sutter Health and California Healthcare System case. Was God specifically looking for a shifty attorney?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:58 am

2bizE wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 pmDid you see Holland try to explain away the fabrication of the book of Abraham?

I'm not sure what you're referring to, 2bizE. Can you provide a link?

I was 2bizE to provide the link..... I was referring to his BBC interview where he was struggling to make any sense of how JS translated the BOA. Here is a snippet, but the full interview is on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=goRh2amv60A

Another thing to consider. Cognitive Dissonance appears to be dealt with in one of two ways: The individual will perhaps revise their worldview to align with new information OR they will double down on their worldview with renewed vigor.

It seems crazy (and let's be honest, often is) to people outside that worldview but it is a well established psychological phenomenon even in the face of what many consider to be irrefutable fact. Our human brains are constantly betraying us.

blazerb wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:44 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:45 am Here's another way to look at it.

For people like us the major question is about whether or not it's true. I seriously think that question is much farther down on the Q15's list. They have an organization to run and millions of people looking to them for guidance and inspiration. I think they're far more concerned about just keeping the machine running, keeping all of those people involved and engaged, and trying NOT to be the guy who screws it up, than they are about whether the narrative is true and the magical powers are real.

Even if some of them have come to the realization that it's all voodoo they are very heavily incentivized to maintain a not-on-my-watch attitude and just get to the end of their life without disappointing all of the people who hold them in such high esteem.

This makes sense to me. I think truth is not a big issue for them.

I agree with this. While tempting to think the top dogs grapple with questions about whether it’s all true or not on a personal level, they’re more likely to never even entertain the notion at all. They’ve crossed that bridge and now they’re too busy trying to come up with “inspired” programs and catch phrases that will somehow result in measurable new success like the new “focus on the sabbath”. Has anyone heard “Hastening the work” in any local or genral meeting recently?

They’re too busy trying to come up with the next “inspired” program to give to the members that will keep it fresh. Nothing excites my local leaders like getting a special memo from HQ about a new push of some sort. Once the energy starts to wain, the Q15 will come up with the next inspired directive. I think this is their work and their glory.

I remember back in the day when Bednar gave his "Tender Mercies" talk. I was EXCITED!....I thought we had another tender one (and I thought Marvin Ashton was such a soul). Now that my shelf has totally crashed, I look back and am amazed at the way Bednar has polarized. He is a little BRM hardliner. It really shocked me.

It depends on what you mean by "true". If by "true" you mean good or will lead you to God, or as Hinckley said, "make you a better husband" then of course they think it is true. If you mean "supported by facts" and that the BOM is historically correct and that the BOA was really translated from a scroll written by Abraham himself, then, no, I don't think they think it is really true.

To illustrate the kind of true I am talking about, my husband has always been true to me. He has never lied, cheated, beat me, or done anything purposely to hurt me. The church has done things several times that have hurt me, so it is not true to me. But I think the church has been good to the top leaders, so it is true to them, even if they do not think of it being true in those exact terms.

I think many/all of them know the problems with the history. They have gone to too much effort to try to hide and confuse the history to think that they do not know it. They know the problem with the BOA and they know the Anacronisms in the BOM. Knowing these facts, they know there are serious problems with the literal view of truth.

But they believe that they would be morally lost without the truth the church teaches them. They believe that the church is good and has helped them with their lives. They believe that people are better off believing it. So, they believe it is true. Like an arrow can be true in that it works as it is supposed to.

Some of us are judging the church by that same standard. It was very harmful to my sense of self worth. Because I had been sexually abused before I knew what sex was, it taught me that I was a licked cupcake, chewed gum, a mange led flower, a dirty wedding dress, and that nothing could ever fix that. It taught me that God loves his sons, but not his daughters. It taught me that my high school friend was a sinner just for being born gay. It taught me that I was worth less as a woman. It taught me that Heavenly Father is a jerk who plays favorites and doesn't mind murder in cold blood if a prophet does it, or doesn't mind a prophet manipulating women into marriage they did not want. So, for me it was not true because it was harmful and did not work to bring me closer to God.

To me, I don't really care if the church is factually correct, or the BOM & BOA were made up fiction, bad fiction, by JS. Because for me the church is a disaster. Even if the BOM checked out historically and the BOA matched the papyri word for word, and all the bad things JS did could be proven to be antiMormon lies, it still would not matter because the church is false as a curved arrow, at least to me.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:41 amKinda wigs me out. But take Bushman for example. I have a friend that has read all of the Joseph Smith papers books, along with other church history books. He still hasn't read anything that you can't buy at Deseret. His proclaimed beliefs are a patchwork quilt, but he maintains a strong belief in JS as a prophet and this church being the One true restored church of Jesus Christ. He is happy to admit they do stupid things and that they aren't getting much revelation anymore, he doesn't really put much stock in the endowment these days; but the rest of it is really true. Its an interesting nuance. That being said, as far as TBMs go he is a lot easier to talk to. In fact he is the only TBM aside from DW that I have fully disclosed to.

Well, there is reading, and then there is READING.

Just because someone has read something, it doesn't mean they actually took the time and effort to analysis and really understand something. An easy example is D&C 89. Nearly every TBM has read it, probably multiple times. However, very few really understand what it actually says when you go off of the text and not the church's interpretation of it.

Os the question is now, okay, he read the JSJ papers, but has he actually taken a analytical eye to them to read and read between the lines? Most TBMs don't do that. It may be the time and effort required, it may be not wanting to look at the rabbit hole.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 pm

slavereeno wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:41 amKinda wigs me out. But take Bushman for example. I have a friend that has read all of the Joseph Smith papers books, along with other church history books. He still hasn't read anything that you can't buy at Deseret. His proclaimed beliefs are a patchwork quilt, but he maintains a strong belief in JS as a prophet and this church being the One true restored church of Jesus Christ. He is happy to admit they do stupid things and that they aren't getting much revelation anymore, he doesn't really put much stock in the endowment these days; but the rest of it is really true. Its an interesting nuance. That being said, as far as TBMs go he is a lot easier to talk to. In fact he is the only TBM aside from DW that I have fully disclosed to.

Well, there is reading, and then there is READING.

Just because someone has read something, it doesn't mean they actually took the time and effort to analysis and really understand something. An easy example is D&C 89. Nearly every TBM has read it, probably multiple times. However, very few really understand what it actually says when you go off of the text and not the church's interpretation of it.

Os the question is now, okay, he read the JSJ papers, but has he actually taken a analytical eye to them to read and read between the lines? Most TBMs don't do that. It may be the time and effort required, it may be not wanting to look at the rabbit hole.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/etd/4800/

If you are the CEO of a major corporation and you hear prouction is using sawdust in your mult vitamins to cut cost what do you do? You have millions of customers who are benifiting from you product. They give testimonials they feel better. Do you keep the facts hidden because after all there is good coming from this bottles even if it is fake.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:10 pm If you are the CEO of a major corporation and you hear prouction is using sawdust in your mult vitamins to cut cost what do you do? You have millions of customers who are benifiting from you product. They give testimonials they feel better. Do you keep the facts hidden because after all there is good coming from this bottles even if it is fake.

w2mz wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:35 am Has anyone heard “Hastening the work” in any local or genral meeting recently?

Yes, in Stake conference here is AZ. In the preparatory Stake Presidency meeting, the phrase was used several times as we discussed our declining convert baptisms and prepared to guilt the congregation into schmoozing their co-workers and neighbors into the church.

My mind kept trying to understand how having 1/4 the number of convert baptisms we had a few years ago equated to the Lord "Hastening his work"?