NOM

OK, now the discussion is getting more serious, so maybe I will share more.

I am ...a skeptical believer, or something. There is something going on that science cannot explain, * yet*. But some things can be explained as things like sleep paralysis, and some things can be explained as money making frauds, and I would say that some things can be explained as "if we want it badly enough" then we somehow trigger something. Is it that we shift reality? Or see things that are not there? Trigger a hallucination? And some things just do not explain.

My DH is an electrical engineer, so he is into the nerdy science stuff like when you want to observe light as a wave then it acts like a wave, he also has seen the spirits hovering around someone close to death. He believes we can shift reality, as in changing the behavior of light. He says that it makes sense that electricity will behave the same way as the light we change by observing it, because it functions as a wave or a particle, so according to physical laws, if light does it, then electricity does it. He explained some stuff that goes zipping over my head about how we can polarize light and electricity and what if it is a matter of polarizing the energy from these other planes so that we can see it?

My MIL swears that she had dead relatives who visited when she was in a lot of pain or close to death, but then she was just nuts, so there is that.

I have had an out of body experience, and so far science has no explanation that fits the experience.

I have close friends with near death experiences, and I believe that something is going on that science is not explaning. It is not "the drying brain in the process of shutting down". And if NDE are in the realm of "the dying brain" then why the similarities across cultures and even thousands of years, because there is "the Tibetian Book of the Dead" that describes NDE thousands of years ago, and they are just like modern ones. If it "the dying brain" then it would be more like a dream or hallucination and people describe it as very different. So, science does not yet have an explanation that fits the data.

But do I really believe that my husband saw spirits? Um, love him to pieces, but no.

So, my conclusion is that I am waiting for further light and knowledge. Something, or multiple somethings, is going on with some of this "woooo woooo" stuff, and science has not explained it yet in some cases, and some cases are wishful thinking. When someone is near death, either us or a loved one, it is very human to want spirits to be real. So our brain produces the vision. My dad was near death once and all he saw were lizards crawling on the ceiling. My mother had a BAD relationship with my father and once when she was near death, she saw him standing behind the doctors. She hardly wished to see him again. But the funny thing was, that I knew he was there. When she actually died, I was the only one there, and there were no hovering visitors. If it is real, why is it not consistent?

And why do I believe there is something to NDE & OBE, and think seeing dead loved ones is fishy, when I have experienced knowing that they are there?

ALAS...Your DH is into some of the same things I mentioned in previous posts.

One of the things that has impressed me so far in my study on NDE and OOBs is the rigor being applied to filtering out the "fishy" stuff -- and I will be one of the first to admit, there is a LOT of that out there....A LOT.

The studies I've read have strict criteria for establishing some specifics to even qualify for being included. I was going to list a few, but if I do, I think I will botch the list, so I'm not going to venture at the moment. But the point is, it was impressive to say the least--these folks aren't messing around (the ones I'm referring to). They are apply some pretty serious rigor to looking at this. They are also throwing out the questionable, the openly fraudulent, and the "wanna be famous" people who just think its vogue to spout of nonsense.

I've read a few accounts of NDEs happening from medical doctors. George Ritchie was probably the first best-seller in this area, and according to his reports, he was challenged on it. He stuck to his guns, even though there was the possibility it would cost him his job, or so the account goes.

I can say a couple of things here which the researchers have really gone after, and are some commonalities that acceptable NDEs seem to share:

1) These are not hallucinations. The sequential flow, detail and harmony of the events are too concise, fluid, clear and precise that it defies all versions of hallucinations.
2) Its not a drug trip event. Though there are some drugs that seem to potentially trigger such events (I don't know at lot about it, but the literature mentions some), what happens to those involved (and I'm talking OOBE here) is clear. They become aware they are out of their bodies in some different dimension, and the hyper-alertness is off the chart.
3) Its not a dream. Many on this thread have mentioned sleep-paralysis, and something not mentioned yet is hypnagogic hallucinations, or the type of dreams that some, especially narcoleptics, encounter where they slip into a dream state when they are awake. The literature is VERY clear on this aspect. In fact, those who drift into this area -- their stories are thrown out as being non-credible. Dreams are not in any way remotely like these NDE reports.
4) Hyperalertness and awareness is astonishing in OOBEs.
5) Vision is 365 cylindrical. EVEN FOR PEOPLE BORN BLIND! Somehow, whatever we become when and if we drift into this "other side" involves the ability to absorb information from all around us simultaneously. This is one of the most difficult things for NDE survivors to explain. They simply can't. The researchers have been astonished at the consistent, persistent, and surprising account of NDE blind people as they struggle to share what happened to them.

I could go on and on. I hope I haven't botched these few things...

Oh. And there are THOUSANDS of these accounts that are documented, and the numbers are growing. In fact, there are accounts now that go back centuries and further--that have been uncovered and fit in just like the rest.

What an exciting time to live. Science and subjective experience are meeting slowly on common ground.

May have been frustrated because the information gathered is anecdotal. Its hard to collect objective info about NDE because or moral factors. But, there are some interesting things that might be happening in this area soon,...melding of subjective and science even more.

LaMachina wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:23 am I am fascinated by the discussion.

Perhaps my biggest problem with putting much stock in anecdotes of a clearly distressed or injured brain is how clearly we know our perceptions are fallible.

I know I've mentioned this book somewhere before but have you had the chance to read "My stroke of insight"? A neuroscientist suffered a stroke and described the experience. She has given a Tedtalk:

https://youtu.be/UyyjU8fzEYU

The reason I share is some of her descriptions reminded me of NDEs and OBEs. Her perception of time and being inside her body changed. I can't eliminate the possibility that she entered a different dimension but it certainly seems plausible that traumatic brain injury can cause a breakdown of our perception of the world and ourself.

These are also anecdotal but I've seen the effects of brain trauma. A relative suffered from a brain tumor and I have a child who suffers from mental illness. You start to mess around with brain mechanisms (like what would happen with the onset of death) and some pretty trippy things can happen.

But I honestly try to be open minded.

It isn't just brain trauma. Any trauma can alter brain chemistry, and some pretty trippy things can happen. I used to work with women who had been sexually abused as kids. The trauma, and the need to escape that trauma, led to some mind boggling experiences. Fully conscious, but having an OoBE. These are really common and range from "going into the wall" to "watching from the ceiling" to "going outside and walking to school, " or "going through the wall into my brother's bedroom." It is considered a form of disassociation by psychologists, but that is just a name for it. Psychologists can't really explain what is going on. And the term disassociation cover a whole basket full of things that are weird, like multiple personalities. So, the term is kind of a grab bag of "strange things we don't understand how they work." The abuse survivor can describe what is going on where ever they go. It is not going into their imagination to pretend they are somewhere else. It is like their consciousness leaves their body. Some learn how to do it on command and can do it the rest of their lives. And it is like astral projection. They can "go" to other places and "see" what is there and come back and describe it. Now, I had no way to "test" this to see if the claims were true.

In one of the books on NDE, the author described a case where the person was in a car accident, with no injuries, but they experienced an OoBE, just like the NDE. But this person was not injured and not near death. Just traumatized.

So, trauma is something that can trigger OoBE.

This kindof stuff:


http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/Res ... _Right.htm

BUT,...NDEs are the things that often get the most notoriety. Any other things going on?

Excellent thread btw.

I took a light look at it in my first post but am fascinated by the different experiences expressed.
Despite the consistency of description by those who have had a NDE or OBE it is difficult to know what is going on. I would still classify these as living experiences. Interesting but still different then say seeing a resurrected jesus or elvis or such. The experiences are interesting and I hope someday we understand what’s going on.

The frustrating thing for me is the idea put forward by so many TBMs that the temple is a conduit for having these brushes with the dead.
Even when I was the BP I had a hard time swallowing a certain man in the ward who regularly claimed to clearly see the persons ghost/spirit he was doing the temple work for. Perhaps I was jealous on some level that I wasn’t having those “special “ visitations too, but I think it was just that I couldn’t buy into it.

I would still say I’m a wishful hoper for a continuation of something meaningful after life. If that is true, I think it will be as common as the rest of nature’s progressive cycle and not reserved for those who know some interesting tokens or signs.

For now, I'm open minded but not holding my breath.

I have a good friend who missioned with the Navajo folk. They told many stories about the wolf men who had supernatural abilities and interactions with spirits of the dead.
Anyone out there with contacts with native spiritualism?

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:43 pm My conclusion after having and studying the experience is that human life is about experiencing being human, that is all, experiencing the good and bad. That is what our 'eternal' being is curious about. As for what is reality, we are always in a projected, or manifested reality.

I like the conclusion you came to after your NDE. I suppose for some it may drive them deeper into their current dogma. Reality and conscious thought are really bizarre when you get to thinking deeper about them, so why not another dimension where consciousness could exists? I like Carl Segan's explanation of the dimensions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:35 pm

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:43 pm My conclusion after having and studying the experience is that human life is about experiencing being human, that is all, experiencing the good and bad. That is what our 'eternal' being is curious about. As for what is reality, we are always in a projected, or manifested reality.

I like the conclusion you came to after your NDE.

I agree, I love this and appreciate you sharing some of your experience.

alas wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:28 pm
It isn't just brain trauma. Any trauma can alter brain chemistry, and some pretty trippy things can happen. I used to work with women who had been sexually abused as kids. The trauma, and the need to escape that trauma, led to some mind boggling experiences.

Great point. I had never quite connected this type of disassociation with NDEs or OBEs but you're absolutely right.

1) These are not hallucinations. The sequential flow, detail and harmony of the events are too concise, fluid, clear and precise that it defies all versions of hallucinations.
2) Its not a drug trip event. Though there are some drugs that seem to potentially trigger such events (I don't know at lot about it, but the literature mentions some), what happens to those involved (and I'm talking OOBE here) is clear. They become aware they are out of their bodies in some different dimension, and the hyper-alertness is off the chart.
3) Its not a dream. Many on this thread have mentioned sleep-paralysis, and something not mentioned yet is hypnagogic hallucinations, or the type of dreams that some, especially narcoleptics, encounter where they slip into a dream state when they are awake. The literature is VERY clear on this aspect. In fact, those who drift into this area -- their stories are thrown out as being non-credible. Dreams are not in any way remotely like these NDE reports.
4) Hyperalertness and awareness is astonishing in OOBEs.
5) Vision is 365 cylindrical. EVEN FOR PEOPLE BORN BLIND! Somehow, whatever we become when and if we drift into this "other side" involves the ability to absorb information from all around us simultaneously. This is one of the most difficult things for NDE survivors to explain. They simply can't. The researchers have been astonished at the consistent, persistent, and surprising account of NDE blind people as they struggle to share what happened to them.

I have to admit, I'm a little confused by the insistence that these phenomena are clearly not hallucinations or dreams? What are the boundaries and definitions that clearly mark out the difference? Not all dreams and hallucinations are created equal but I'm curious what you suggest the defining differences would be. From what I can tell, clear, concise and fluid are not effective defining parameters.

As for hyperawareness and the breakdown of our behind-the-nose point of view check out that talk by Jill Bolte Taylor on her stroke experience. It's pretty great. The way she describes how our brain hemispheres interact and frame our perception is pretty fascinating. I'm curious how one has an OBE like that while still clearly being within her own body. Obviously not an NDE yet some fascinating parallels.

The fact that blind people can recollect having sight during an NDE is pretty fascinating. There are definitely intriguing things going on during the experience. I just question if what they see reflects material reality.

Have you heard of the AWARE study? I first heard of it years ago and positive results would've been pretty convincing that somehow consciousness could exist outside our brains. Unfortunately it seems to have found no evidence thus far.

But I looked into George Ritchie as I had not heard of him. I'll tell you why I remain skeptical. While it sounds like he told people of his NDE for years he didn't write his book on it till 40 years after the event. Groups that claim third party confirmation of his experience suggest that they have found evidence that a building he claimed to float over perhaps existed and that the general layout of a street he had no prior knowledge of jives with his claims. I couldn't really find any evidence of what his claims were before writing his book (4 decades after the incident). The group claiming third party evidence admits that individuals who could corroborate some of his story have passed. And after his experiences that could possibly be corroborated his NDE becomes typical of a western Christian believer.

None of that proves that his consciousness did not leave his body but my BS meter starts dinging. I may have missed some more solid evidence while perusing his story.

LaMachina...I'll try to respond to your questions. I'll have to find what I have and make sure to give some references. I wish I had taken notes (like page numbers and such) on things I've read; it would make citing references, and even giving direct quotes a lot easier.

When I can, I'll take a crack at it.

First off, I have to correct bad science.

DPRoberts wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:30 pm IIRC, the "double slit" problem is one in theoretical physics that does not have a known explanation in our natural world of three dimensions of space and one of time.

The double-slit experiment is perfectly understood by scientists, and though paradoxical, the laws of quantum mechanics give you this result. Quantum electrodynamics is the most accurate and most verified scientific theory out there, and the precision to which we have verified it is truly stunning.

Next, I think that you should be aware that OBEs can be induced deliberately. I recently had a conversation with two guys who had both experienced at least one, one of them using narcotics, and the other one using meditation.

Finally, I am not convinced by any scientific explanation of the NDE experience. It is universal enough for me to accept it as an entirely plausible reality. I personally like the narrative it constructs around our mortal experience, and the NDErs out there seem to take away something similar to what my own spiritual experiences have "taught" me.

Dumbledore wrote:Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?

I’ll admit I’m a scoffer. I have a relative who claims to talk to people on the other side. I have said to her, bring them out then and let’s all have a talk...no one ever shows up. Sorry, but I just don’t buy it. It can all be explained in neuroscience. If spirits are out there communicating to people, The never want to come to lunch with me. I’m available anytime!

Spiritless wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:03 pm I’ll admit I’m a scoffer. I have a relative who claims to talk to people on the other side. I have said to her, bring them out then and let’s all have a talk...no one ever shows up. Sorry, but I just don’t buy it. It can all be explained in neuroscience. If spirits are out there communicating to people, The never want to come to lunch with me. I’m available anytime!

I am also aware of some people who claim to talk to those on the "other side". When it comes time to put up or shut up, they waffle and keep the ball rolling with more outlandish tales. JS was like that IMHO. So, what happens is the "well gets poisoned" as it were: so many of these stories circulate that when something comes along that may have a fiber of authenticity, its hard to even consider it at all.

So, I'm picking up what you are laying down Spiritless...I get it. And as I said above, I haven't made up my mind yet one way or another about this "other side" business. The double-slit stuff opens the doorway, to me, in a rather bizarre way concerning consciousness. And that one has science behind it.

Now, some are talking about drug-induced OOBEs, and things like this hyperalertness also potentially being associated with death rattles, drugs, or possibly other things outside the realm of OOBE. I'm listening and totally willing to consider that. So, for those who are claiming this, is there any reference material you can suggest? This whole "other side" issue, especially the NDE and OOBE type of things is controversial: people line up all over the place, and they cry "INCREDULOUS!" and "WACCO NUT!" at each other. Makes for a hostile environment, and contributes to people not sharing their experiences if they have them.

One of the things I've read is the difficulty of having scientific standards for some of these things. You can't kill someone so you can measure what happens to them. Consequently, it becomes subjective what is reported, and those who are a little looney to start with can poison the water for the rest. Its sad, but I get it.

Here are the books I've read on the subject with some comments about them:

Return From Tomorrow -- George Ritchie
This was the first book of this type I read. I was TBM at the time, and it fed my confirmation bias totally. It is still an interesting/quick read and also was one of the first books to popularize the NDE phenomina.

The Burning Within -- Ranelle Wallace
During my TBM days, this was the most influential book I've ever read. It is not overtly LDS, but it does have some devotional things that were encouraging. The love theme is very prevelant in NDE experiences. I've met the author personally and was able to grill her with questions. Her answers were credible. SHE believes what she is saying.

Beyond the Darkness -- Angie Fennimore
This lady attempted suicide and survived it. She didn't go to a nice place. What she recalled and wrote about was horrific. I've met this woman personally and was also able to grill her with questions. SHE believes what she is saying as well.

Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Near-Death Experience and Journey into the Afterlife -- Eben Alexander
This is an audible book (which makes note taking harder). He is a neurosurgeon and a lot of what he says flies in the face of neuroscientific explanations of what happened to him. This book and the subsequent work he has done since is more cutting edge. He lectures and works with the IANDS and has given several lectures. I find his approach devotional; however, he is pretty certain what he experienced was NOT related to some crazy notion of hallucination. In fact, he devoted a large portion of the book to discussing that very topic from the perspective of a neurosurgeon. This is one of the power-house credible books.

To Heaven and Back: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Death, Heaven, Angels and Life Again -- Mary C. Neal
Another physician who tells it like it is. She also doesn't buy into the neuroscientific rebuttal of what happened to her. She sais it was an OOBE, and she has a soul. We all do. Period. Her credentials, like that of Alexander above, add credibility to the account.

Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences -- Jeffrey Long & Paul Perry
This guy has applied some science to the study, as far as possible. Jeffrey Long is a MD, and as part of his practice he started to study NDE things because of the prevalence of the accounts, as well as the profound affects those who claimed them experienced in the rest of their lives. This book is a VERY good one. I also bought this via audible. He devotes large sections of rebuttals to various discounting claims about the phenomena. It's fascinating. I am going to try to listen again to this one, and take some notes. He has a website, like the IANDS, where a BUNCH of data is being accumulated. There are journals that are picking up the topics, and they are applying scholarship. Suppose, for example, that no such thing as OOBE happens. Well, if that is the case, then WHAT IS HAPPENING? These guys are chasing it. The evidence appears to be landing on OOBE do in fact happen, and we have no idea what is really going on....or do we?

Near-Death Experiences: The Rest of the Story: Whey They Teach Us About Living and Dying and Our True Purpose -- P.M.H. Atwater
Another audible book. This is another one that explores the topic, has some compelling things, and talks about the profound changes people undergo. One of the things that is most fascinating is I/Q, after NDEs, for a LOT of people (I want to say majority--but I will have to check my facts) actually GOES UP. This lady talks about this and has some statistics and references to show she is not blowing smoke. So, you can claim that brain trauma causes hallucinations, and that explains the NDE. But how then do you account for I/Q increasing AFTER the experience? This lady gets into that stuff. This is another powerhouse. Part of what this lady does is talk about the children she has interviewed. The difference between the accounts told by adults and children are fascinating. Good stuff....

Life After Death? NDEs 10 Fascinating Facts About Near Death Experiences Confirming an Afterlife -- Wayne H. Purdin
I don't know who this guy is. I got this off kindle because I wanted to get into the topic and just picked it up as it got good reviews.

Life After Life -- Raymond Moody
This is a staple read for many. He was one of the first to really popularize the stories people told. He is a real believer something is going on. One of the compelling things he mentioned is that the accounts of children are not easy to discount. When a child describes things they have never seen (in life), places they have never been (in life), conversations they have never heard (in life), it isn't easy to account for the sudden accumulation of knowledge. This, IMHO, is one of the more compelling arguments that maybe a "soul" of some type does exist and travels outside the body during NDEs. Is this place outside our body the "other place" or "dimension" that science is now finding exists? Stay tuned is all I can say...

--------------

Visions of Glory -- John Pontus
I wasn't impressed with this book. There was a big following and no names of who is Spencer and so forth. Yeh...I got the book and read it. I think it hurts the cause of objectivity and landed more in the 'wacco' camp.

A Greater Tomorrow -- Julie Rowe
Same deal on this one.

Gaze into Heaven: Near-Death Experiences in Early Church history -- Marlene Bateman Sullivan
This was a fascinating book, and for a TBM this would feed confirmation bias to no extreme. In this book, some NDE people returned and reported that both JS and HS were resurrected because they had proceeded so far that they were qualified to take up their bodies. It would be FREAKING FASCINATING to exhume the bodies and see for sure. Actually, I am aware that a forensic study was done like in 1940s or something where they dug up the skulls to check the measurements and such? I think these accounts were recorded before the dig happened, which blows the stories away as fabricated lies.

Note: I found a reference: "As noted earlier, in 1928 the skulls of the two brothers were taken to an
upper room of the Mansion House, where they were photographed and measured." So was then.

Journey to the Veil -- John Pontus
Yeh, I got this one to.

---------
OK, the ones above at the top?...I think they are good reads. Some of the other ones?...nada.

I think there are a few more in there I've read. But now I'm wanting to start looking at the arguments on both sides, and also trying to learn more about what constitutes arguments that are compelling enough to formulate conclusions, or at least accept 'suggestions'.

My browser is fighting me at the moment folks. Please forgive typos and incoherency in this. I think I better submit lest I lose the lot....

My grandpa had a NDE. My SIL is from a south American country and can tell some crazy possession stories from vudu.

I have seen ghosts -- some relatives, some strangers. Some poltergeist activity. I'm the kid that blows out lightbulbs and wristwatches. Some clairvoyant experiences, some seeing the future. Some mind reading. Not consistently enough to be profitable.

I am simultaneously curious and scared of what I've experienced. Some is good. Some is evil.

I will say a lot of it is so commonplace I wouldn't be surprised if most people haven't seen ghosts but didn't notice them or realize what it was/ that something was there.

Thoughtful wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:22 pm My grandpa had a NDE. My SIL is from a south American country and can tell some crazy possession stories from vudu.

I have seen ghosts -- some relatives, some strangers. Some poltergeist activity. I'm the kid that blows out lightbulbs and wristwatches. Some clairvoyant experiences, some seeing the future. Some mind reading. Not consistently enough to be profitable.

I am simultaneously curious and scared of what I've experienced. Some is good. Some is evil.

I will say a lot of it is so commonplace I wouldn't be surprised if most people haven't seen ghosts but didn't notice them or realize what it was/ that something was there.

Thoughtful, please don't take this wrong in any way, but what your grandpa saw, or your SIL saw doesn't interest me as much; its second hand for your grandpa, and possibly third hand or more from your SIL. Make sense?...it's too far removed. But having said that, let's talk about YOUR experience.

Be as objective as you can. I want to warn you before you share (and please please please don't take this wrong either), I also come from the skeptic side a bit myself, though I am leaning toward thinking there is more to this "other side" business than many. When you share, I want to ask questions--hard questions. Why would I do that?...because it helps to know if there are other things possibly going on. It also helps to establish the credibility of the account. The hard questions are NOT a personal attack--and I will be clear about that.

If you recall my posts above, I met 2 of the NDE survivors who wrote books. That was first-hand stuff from them, so I did what I could to really go after the credibility of the account. I was careful with the people, but I was pretty direct with questions.

Can you share more?...can I ask you questions about the circumstances and your account? If this thread gets cynical and nasty, it will shut down others who might share, and I want to avoid that.

Please DO NOT feel threatened. That is not the intent of this. I just want to get down there into the good stuff and learning what I can, and unless questions (hard questions) can be asked, how can we widdle down to the good stuff?

And just so you know, the credibility of your account will probably go up if you are willing to admit there may be mistakes or questions about it you yourself don't understand.

-------------------------

Look, let me be fair here with a personal example, which is about the closest I have ever come to any type of "other side" event myself. I have asked myself all kinds of personal questions about this as well, which I will re-iterate here to be fair and transparent.

I served a LDS mission in Australia. While there, a young surfing bum guy asked for a blessing to help quite his smoking habit. Two very GREEN missionaries (myself and companion) proceeded to give the blessing. My companion was the voice person.

During that prayer, I felt a power manifest. It felt unmistakable to me: I felt a warm chill go up and down my back in a very profound way, and it came in surges and felt like it went through my arms into this guy we were praying over. I remember being shocked--not BEFORE but AFTER it started. I had the thought: "WOW! Pay attention! This is a once in a lifetime event!" I remember opening my eyes and looking around the room. I thought, for a moment, I would actually see someone standing or something like fire in the room. I had a really good look, checked my feelings and wondered why this was happening. Whatever was going on was unmistakable to me.

After the prayer, it was interesting that the other 2 (the guy who said the prayer and the guy receiving it) had VERY similar experiences. We were all shocked.

OK, now here are some questions I asked myself:

1. Was this a self-induced experience?
Answer: I was a TBM at the time, very devout and committed. So, perhaps. However, the magnitude of the event defied this in my own judgment. But to be honest, I can't conclude 100% I didn't bring this on myself. I STRONGLY lean toward this being something unexplainable by natural means. This event (which happened 16 additional times in similar circumstances) seemed like a brush with "the other side"....or something else like that. Its one of the reasons I'm on this weird quest, and why things like NDE and OOBE are so dang puzzling and interesting to me.

2. Did this event confirm the "power of the priesthood"?
Answer: I use to think this, and have since rejected this. I FELT something unmistakable, but I didn't HEAR a voice say: "The CHURCH IS TRUE!!!!!" I realize that something happened, but drawing conclusions about it are not warranted. So, no, I don't believe this confirmed anything. It just happened. When I get into interpretation, that is where I can start going off and making unwarranted conclusions that become difficult to untangle later on.

3. Was there anything going on that would lend to or induce this experience?
Answer: I've thought about this one pretty hard. The answer is NO. Nothing except what I discussed in #1 above.

I could share a hundred more questions.

The only conclusion I can make for myself is something unexplained happened. I personally do not think the warm chills were self-induced.

Now...let me be frank. I've had "warm chills" go up my spine. A good example is when I drink a tart lemonade. Sometimes it happens: WHOOOO--chills right up the spine. Sometimes if someone touches my neck with a pair of soft fingernails,...WHOOOO--chills right up the spine.

What happened in this event above?...it was beyond that, but I can't explain it other than something happened; it created questions for me. Is this "other side" business for real? ...because this felt like a brush against it.

Years later when I became aware of this double-slit experiment, the first idea/question that occurred to me was: "Does this experiment, in any way, suggest that consciousness may exist outside the body?" Clearly consciousness affects how matter manifests. THAT is a solid conclusion suggested by this reproducible experiment. Do you all know how ground-breaking this is folks? This stuff may possibly change the entire focus of science!--its that BIG.

I'm getting ahead of myself.

So, there you have it. There you have my experience (which happened 17 times to me). You think during those 17 times I didn't ask myself some credulity questions?

I wanna know about this "other side" stuff. I am hungry. I wanna get my own bias the H3LL out of the way and get down to some facts that lead somewhere.

Thoughts?

Don't everyone poop out. We were just getting the ball rolling.....

Ain't none of you curious about this stuff?...nothing to share or even to ask?

I'm ambivalent about near-death experiences. Don't want to die until my appointed time, but it would be fun to see Narnia and live to tell about it.

moksha wrote: ↑Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:34 am I'm ambivalent about near-death experiences. Don't want to die until my appointed time, but it would be fun to see Narnia and live to tell about it.

I've read several excerpts from people who,...err,...did 'bad things' (and I mean some really bad things). Their' NDEs weren't pleasant. As far as they are concerned, the idea of HELL frightens them pretty bad. Its interesting that the research going on out there actually has a section that discusses unpleasant NDEs, though most of them are of the pleasant kind, as reported.

Narnia or whatever, its gunna be "a RIDE!"...

Just purchased the Kindle version of "The Self Does Not Die"....a NDE book that is very new and claims to report on verifiable OOBE events that are impossible to account for with the physical conditions/circumstances of the NDEs. For example, having a child describe things in the next room where children are never allowed (in fact, only authorized hospital staff are), and describing instrument readings, conversations, etc that are impossible to describe from any type of coincidental contamination of information other than being there.

A whole chapter is devoted to criticizing the critics' arguments as well.

The guy who promoted the book on the IANDS site explained that criticism is essential to science--without criticism, there can BE no science. But, valid criticism must be somewhat ideologically neutral. If your mind is made up ahead of time, you discount where the data may lead; this prejudices your mind against potential alternate explanations that may fit the facts better than the current model.

This reminds of Lyndon Lamborns book. He devoted a significant section of a chapter to his training in crash investigation. Don't make up your mind until you have all the evidence, and then the EVIDENCE is what leads to a conclusion--not your presuppositions.

I am looking forward to reading this book and will perhaps post some things here that may jump out as interesting.

Let's expand this.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1Ss

We think we know so much...

Opinions? impressions?

Just going to share my experience.

On my mission, got a call at like 10:00pm from a panicked sister. Her comp was growling and screaming curled up in her bed unable to move. We grabbed a car and headed to their apartment, 4 of us. When the door opened this sister missionary was visibly shaken, crying. Her comp was on the bed just as described, growling, clenched teeth the occasional scream unable to move. We gave her a blessing. About half way through the blessing the growling, screaming and gnashing stopped. After the blessing she got up, completely fine, except for the tears on her face and the swollen blood shot eyes. We prayed and left.

Neither sister was or has been since prone to this kind of experience. Neither shared this with anybody else that I am aware of. The mission pres. dismissed it as stress and maybe he was right? I don't know, but that's my brush.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:58 am Just going to share my experience.

On my mission, got a call at like 10:00pm from a panicked sister. Her comp was growling and screaming curled up in her bed unable to move. We grabbed a car and headed to their apartment, 4 of us. When the door opened this sister missionary was visibly shaken, crying. Her comp was on the bed just as described, growling, clenched teeth the occasional scream unable to move. We gave her a blessing. About half way through the blessing the growling, screaming and gnashing stopped. After the blessing she got up, completely fine, except for the tears on her face and the swollen blood shot eyes. We prayed and left.

Neither sister was or has been since prone to this kind of experience. Neither shared this with anybody else that I am aware of. The mission pres. dismissed it as stress and maybe he was right? I don't know, but that's my brush.

There may be something more to that. Possession (which is what I think this alluding to) is historically referenced and practiced routinely in some religions as well.

My assumption is this sister wasn't using any type of drugs and didn't have a history of any epileptic type of physical problems? No history of brain lesions, tumors or other such things?

What do you think was going on? What does the other sister thing was happening?

PS. I think there is a lot of this type of stuff happening out there, and most now-a-days just brush it off as mental illness or some type of seizure. Is that really accurate? This is a whole interesting area and would be quite interesting to get some serious data on.