NOM

This is a great list of baby and bathwater. I probably would have a very similar list if I wrote one from scratch. All Mormons are buffet mormons. We all cringe when looking at the plates of others that eagerly pile stuff one that is repulsive to us.

I hope for a church that is more big tent. The church is so insistent on keeping the approved list of "let them manage themselves" items to a minimum. They like to command in all things and where the commandments end, they like to imply and shame to further extend the list.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:05 pm I have reached a point where I can sit through the most ridiculous church talks without clenching either teeth or fists. Their inability/unwillingness to step out into the scary world of reality is not my responsibility.

I am not quite there yet, I get anxious and angry still.

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:37 amThey like to command in all things and where the commandments end, they like to imply and shame to further extend the list.

Yeah and its not enjoyable to me.

As far as DW goes, I would be asking her to sacrifice a huge part of her identity and things she enjoys and gets a lot of fulfillment from such as music opportunities, to leave. Not to mention the family and community shunning/pitying that would inevitably follow, its a huge, scary thing that seems to be mostly downside and little to no upside. The hooks are set deep.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:42 pm
As far as DW goes, I would be asking her to sacrifice a huge part of her identity and things she enjoys and gets a lot of fulfillment from such as music opportunities, to leave. Not to mention the family and community shunning/pitying that would inevitably follow, its a huge, scary thing that seems to be mostly downside and little to no upside. The hooks are set deep.

This is where a lot of us are at. Taking a step out as the man seems to be easier than taking the step as a woman. Men have a whole other world they interact with out of necessity at work. That work is divinely sanctioned and mandated. Women may work, but it is publicly discouraged and silently judged. Although I think the judging is getting far better these days. If my (stay at home) wife were to take a step back she loses social groups, family relations, purpose in life, and a hobby. I have lost the same things, and we were both taught that those things were the whole point of our existence, but it is easier for me to fulfill some of those things outside of the church framework than it is for her. That makes it huge and scary.

You can start to rebuild a new life now that will be the foundation for a mormon replacement. Find new hobbies, friends, and places that can take over Mormonism's clench on your life. One of the best things I did was support my wife while she went back to school. This gave her purpose, drive, and eventually a part time income she pays tithing on! It's tough when all you know is jello and funeral potatoes but eventually your pallet will expand.

Hmmmm... Its been a few months, time for an update?

In fairness I am having an pretty unhappy at the church day today... but I do offer valid reasons for most of the changes.

Moving the following from The Baby list to a new list!

The Meh:
* The community: there are still some nice people and very close friends in our ward, but DW and I have been involved in some other non-church communities recently and find they are just as fulfilling, if not more so. Places to enjoy getting to know new people, who incidentally judge you less. I think we just need more of this.
* About 25% of the best of the hymns I believe almost all of my favs are not specific to Mormonism. Plus there are a ton of great songs that aren't even part of the LDS hymnbook.
* Striving for excellence This isn't a Mormon only thing at all really. Its a human thing.
* Teachings against drugs, alcohol and sex for teens again, not a Mormon only thing. I do think the world encourages sex and alcohol too early for kids in general, but the teaching kids to wait on this stuff isn't strictly a Mormon thing, and Mormons teach sex so wrong it does more damage than good.
* Teachings of Love I am about to finish "The Book of Joy." This is NOT a Mormon thing, in fact it seems LDS leaders have to go out of their way not to taint their teachings of love with other toxic beliefs and policies...
* Teachings of commitment to marriage When the marriage is good, (ie not abusive) this is a good thing, but not a Mormon only thing.
* Teachings of respect for others See Teachings of Love above.
* Teachings of modesty/cleanliness See Teachings against drugs, alcohol and sex for teens, same applies to adults
* Prayer/Meditation Again, not a Mormon thing, in fact they don't teach meditation even remotely right.
* Sense of purpose Their sense of purpose for me is pointless. What do all the hours spent by so many people in the temple accomplish to make our world a better place?
* Knowing about my ancestors/being connected to my past Somehow the church took ownership of this, but the concept is as old as the human race.
* A single calling I'd rather just volunteer when and where I want.
* Missions I think a better experience could be had perhaps by volunteering for overseas service with the various groups that organize such things (peace corps etc.) You would do worthwhile service to human beings instead of what amounts to basically pure sales, you could have more choice in your experience and perhaps even come back with a few coins left in your pocket.

Moved to The Bathwater:
* The youth activities (if you remove the weird brainwashing aspects of them) These are negated by the indoctrination aspect, and there are some really awesome things for kids to be a part of outside the church. The world is made for teens.
* Teachings of humility I have a really hard time accepting teachings of humility from a church so hostile to outsiders and so sure of their spiritual superiority. I don't feel one whit of humility from about 14 of the Q15.
* Organized service opportunities Hmmm, this one has lost its lustre for me recently, it could go back to "the Baby" or at least "meh" but all our ward seems to do is "service" at the temple or for other members of the ward. It seems so self serving. The last couple of Eagle service projects have been temple stuff. There are homeless, starving, battered, lonely, oppressed and ill people all over the world and we go do landscaping for a multi-trillion dollar corporation, its kind of disgusting.

The Baby:
* The ward activities I am leaving this on here to provide an illusion of objectivity on my part. The last couple of ward activities were fun.
* Family night/family focus I love family night, its a great idea, but probably not exclusively Mormon either... I will give them the benefit of the doubt i guess.

Stuff I don't Know where to put yet:
* Alcohol I am curious but also rather hesitant, going to play it safe for now.