NOM

I don't think I have, but I wouldn't feel guilty if I did. I would love to see all my friends and family out of this labyrinth and living normal lives.

I was close with a member family in Brazil when I was on my mission. They were recent converts at the time and I remembered that their mother had real concerns about Joseph Smith right after she went through the temple for the first time and was really disgusted by polygamy. During my recent faith crisis I found them on Facebook and carefully asked her about her beliefs after more than 25 years. She told me that she had struggled all of those years with serious doubts, but she still participated. I gave her the link to Mormonthink and in a few short days she was out. Her husband hung on for a few more weeks, but eventually the weight of the new information was too much and he was out too. Their adult son followed soon after. At the same time, the essays were coming out, so she started to expose the issues with as many people as would listen. I may have lit the fire that has caused several people in that area to have a FC. I feel like we are really just at the beginning of a wave of disaffection.

alas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:16 pm Yes, I was asked by a friend about polygamy, and I answered that I thought it was not of God. My friend questioned how I reconciled JS as Grand Poobah. I answered honestly that I have a problem with JS. She asked about BoM, and I said I think it was as true as the Bible. I neglected to say I think the Bible is 3/4 myth/fiction. I was really trying to just end the conversation because I was a closet unbeliever, but I didn't want to out right lie.

Well, she got on the Internet to try to prove that JS was really a perfect Grand Poobah and that polygamy is also true. Her testimony failed faster than a person can catch Trump in a lie.

And she hated me for it. The friendship ended very badly.

That sucks. How long ago was it? Mine time hasn't been sufficient to heal that wound.

Ok, so we met at Starbucks, during conference. I sat next to a guy listening to conference and drinking long a water. That was strange. He got up and left after we started into the conversation. Not sure if he heard us or was just done (right after the Oaks talk on the proclamation).

So he was a stake president in Brazil (I wasn't going to mention this and risk exposing him, but I don't think he cares now, nor is it likely that anyone here would know him). He lives in the MorCor with me now. He had serious doubts about blacks and the PH, read the Essays, and interacted with FAIR and other apologists. He was well on his way with a heavy shelf, but a book I recommended (Sapiens) really pushed his thought process outside of finite Mormonism.

Anyway, we spoke for 3 hours and had a great conversation. He is struggling with where to proceed now that the cat is out of the bag. He doesn't know about the go-forward with the ward, with his family, etc...

I am an active non-believer. Most in my ward don't know. I am lucky to have several NOM type members in my ward to be open with. That makes Sunday easier.

We dug through some of the mess of history, doctrine, and policy. But we mostly spoke of theology, philosophy, and the real life struggles this presents. We both have all daughters and our wives (we each have only one, for clarity) are starting to follow in some nuance but are more in it for the community and kids.

Anyway, I won't bore you with the details, we have all had these conversations (it was like a 3 hour rehash of the typical NOM topics). We hit all the highlights.

About 2 hours in, a lady came over from across the room and said "sorry to interrupt, but I overheard your conversation. I am a Mormon, can I answer any of your questions?" We were quite surprised. We told her we are too and that we are good. Now I wish I would have had her pull up a chair, pull out her phone, and pointed out the Essays.

The funny thing is he has never listened to any podcasts. He has watched lots of YouTube. I helped him download Podcast Addict and gave him 10+ subscriptions to start.

He was super grateful to have someone to speak with. He has spoken to his BP and SP who were no help.

There will be more meetings and I am going to introduce him to several other NOM and Exmo's in town too.

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:37 pm

alas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:16 pm Yes, I was asked by a friend about polygamy, and I answered that I thought it was not of God. My friend questioned how I reconciled JS as Grand Poobah. I answered honestly that I have a problem with JS. She asked about BoM, and I said I think it was as true as the Bible. I neglected to say I think the Bible is 3/4 myth/fiction. I was really trying to just end the conversation because I was a closet unbeliever, but I didn't want to out right lie.

Well, she got on the Internet to try to prove that JS was really a perfect Grand Poobah and that polygamy is also true. Her testimony failed faster than a person can catch Trump in a lie.

And she hated me for it. The friendship ended very badly.

That sucks. How long ago was it? Mine time hasn't been sufficient to heal that wound.

It has been about ten years now. And I have tried to reach out, but she gives me one word answers, so she has not forgiven. When things blew up, I saw she had posted over 100 angry emails. I read a couple, and it was just insane anger, and rather than attempting to respond to that kind of insanity, I just deleted them and when they kept coming for another few hours, I blocked her. She stayed blocked until I figured she had given up on the email tsunami. It took me awhile to even figure if I wanted to stay friends with someone who goes that crazy over any kind of disagreement. Over 100 emails in a couple of hours and then maybe 50 more before I blocked her. So, when I say it ended badly, I am not kidding.

But, being NOM makes it hard to maintain friendships with anyone who is not also NOM. I have lost two friends over being the evil apostate, another one because I triggered her questions and she lost her testimony, and another because I am not angry enough at the church. So, I have kind of given up on friends lately.

That is crazy. How is that your fault?!

This all really sucks. Amazing how humans want to be with in-group tho let's and we just can't stand to be challenged.

MalcolmVillager wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:01 pm
About 2 hours in, a lady came over from across the room and said "sorry to interrupt, but I overheard your conversation. I am a Mormon, can I answer any of your questions?" We were quite surprised. We told her we are too and that we are good. Now I wish I would have had her pull up a chair, pull out her phone, and pointed out the Essays.

Sounds like it went well! And now I wonder if you caused a FC for this lady too, once she found out that you are both Mormon.

I caused my husband's faith crisis. Things had been coming to a boil for me with the church and he could see that I was unhappy. So one day he asked what was going on and I pretty much let everything come out. He sat and listened to me for two hours. He decided he would do some research himself so he could reassure me that everything was fine. Within a week, he was done.

Everyone else who has asked me why we left has remained fully entrenched. We really don't discuss the church much anymore!